An OpenVillage Food Culture: Sidi Kaouki

I’ve not seen any reticence to explore a varied cuisine, there is inevitably a fusion of styles that occurs (like when @anique.yael created the unique Edgeryders version of Shakshuka :sweat_smile:) I think you’re right that there is an element of self selection that occurs. People willing to take that step into the unknown are often more likely to be adventurous when it come to food.

But it does bear thinking about in more detail. Especially if you want to think about how the culture of food is shared between OV locations. I had an interesting discussion with @nadia a while back about how within shared living spaces, there is the tendancy over time to default towards the most extreme needs in the cultural set up: e.g. if 2 vegans are in a squat; the whole squat is vegan.

This poses a potential point of friction within a more fluid set up such as OV. If people are cooking for everyone, but have to take into account the changing dietary requirements of visitors and temporary guests how does that square? I can cook a huge variety of dishes that use meat, a handful of vegetarian dishes and maybe 2-3 vegan dishes. Would the long term residents of an OV space be expected to change their cooking habits to make allowance for the visitor, or visa versa? All relevant and pertinent questions i think.

I’m not suggesting that there is a one-size fits all for the whole OV, but i think its a case of the situation being explicit to all participants. “if you go to x, it is a vegan space” “if you go to y, it’s a omnivorous kitchen garden space,” etc…

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Yeah, having someone in charge to manage expectations.
All in all, I dont see this as a big problem - diverse enough dishes, diverse enough cooks (which means offering anyone the opportunity to probe their talent and risk “innovations” :)). The thing which i find more worrying is avoiding waste…
What I do in my house (smaller coliving as we know) - I have days regularly when I just clean the fridge: pick products close to date (or even overdue!), eat leftovers, get creative with assembling what’s there into a dish. It’s more of a secret behavior, but in a larger group I wouldnt mind putting it forward as a proposal.

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This is a basic when it comes to recepies history of creation. Famous plates included indeed.

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hey @alberto
I agree that the competitive cooking side of things is a pleasant side-effect. But i wonder if it extrapolates out in a permanent living space. Would i find it frustrating to constantly have to masterchef for the group every time i cooked? possibly. Especially if on to of that I was also running a separate project.

also, even with hyper local resupply options it still adds time cost. I’m not sure that the Sidi group have really got the bottom of the distribution of duties when it comes to shopping for food. Ultimately the chef must be responsible for buying the required ingredients or communicating all the options. That adds to the daily responsibility. Or, say I choose to shop on a different day to the day I cook, I must also make sure that the supplies I purchase aren’t used up in the interim. Again, fine for a few weeks if mistakes occur. But long term, frustrations are going to build up.

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I don’t know what the ‘plan’ is, long term. Like Alberto says above this is probably the first time we’ve had a specific discussion about how the culture of food fits into the Open Village idea. Which is strange when you think how integral it is to the whole enterprise.

Personally, I think we have to build a high %age food autonomy into any permanent OV space. It would be very un-edgy to not do so.
Like you suggest, it also gives a clear outreach opportunity to the spaces, linking up OV participants with the communities that they sit within. Perhaps we can teach, perhaps we can learn; either way there needs to be space within to experiment with autonomy. Either as a garden or as a hydro/culture.

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We did pretty well avoiding food waste. Especially with leftover cooked food. It helps that both me and @matthias are strong believers in ‘bread washing’ our plates, bowls, dishes, saucepans…

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I can only offer my own experience, which is limited.

unMonastery (population = ~10): quite some masterchefing going on. On the other hand, it means you are only cooking once every 4-5 days. Plus you volunteer for it, so you are likely to volunteer when you feel like cooking anyway. So, maybe that’s the day when you want to show off, most of the times.

The Reef (population = ~4): very little masterchefing. People do not seem to feel pressure (I certainly don’t). Occasionally somebody will feel like putting a little more effort (it happened to me after reading this post by @alex_levene!), and then we will do so.

My hunch is that it depends on numbers. Larger numbers => better food… but only up to 10-12, probably, cooking for 50 people has completely different logistic implications.

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I remember a pop festival in Sweden where they just decided to make the whole thing vegetarian and only allowed vendors selling vegetarian and Vegan dishes on the festival grounds. Angry meat eaters (many of whom were never going to attend the festival anyway) raged on in the media to the entertainment of the rest of us. I think it was a smart move and anyway people eat too much meat, risk of bad handling and food poisoning etc. Just keep it simple.

Also, vegetarian food is cheaper. Bean-based protein is the most cost-effective protein. Combining food to make complete protein dramatically reduces the cost of living. Those who demand a more meat-based diet should at least understand the economics of that. One compromise is Asian-style cooking that uses meat much more sparingly.

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Could you remind me of what to combine? Soybeans and … something. Tried to tell @komitas about that as he is himself vegetarian, but could not remember the second ingredient of that magical combination you mentioned while you were here in Sidi Kaouki …

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Basically it is combining legumes with whole grain.
Pinto beans and corn - the classic of Mexico.
Soy and rice (brown being better than white).
Chick peas and bulgar.
Are some examples.
It is not necessary that they be eaten at the same time. And eating whole grains, legumes, fresh vegetables in variety and avoiding overly processed food will do the job for you. And really, a varied diet of legumes, whole grains and fresh vegetables (fruit good but not as a substitute) and tubers will keep you strong and healthy.

My own experience at The Farm was that we became total vegans before we really knew how to do a correct diet for it. Like a lot of “new age” types, we got on the brown rice bandwagon early and our meals were dominated by rice and veg stir fry.

When we moved onto the land and had to work at hard physical labor all day, we discovered the problems in our diet. We never fully solved it until we started pressure cooking soybeans and making other soy products like tofu. And around that same time we discovered that a certain kind of nutritional yeast is a good source of vitamin B12 that is not an animal product. Once we got that going, we would work hard all day long and not get fatigued. Soybeans must be cooked with a pressure cooker or they will never get soft enough. And not everyone loves to eat them. So there is that. But it is amazing how much more cheaply one can eat.

But again, if you don’t have a pressure cooker and don’t want to eat soy then go with whole grains, legumes and fresh vegetables.

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Dear Alex, I enjoyed reading you! My thoughts briefly on that topic:

I love the idea of heaving someone in charge for the kitchen and food supply. We do this in our Wir bauen Zukunft project too. This person is responsible for checking what we need to buy, how many people are currently eating on site…I also believe it’s important to check on for example what needs to be cooked each day, because it will get bad. For me I had difficulties with one thing: in the mornings everyone made breakfast for themselves. So the ones that ate first for example used up the bread and the ones eating later did not have any left. So for me this is very new, because even though there is no “we all eat together” rule in the mornings, I always look how many people are already awake and ask around who wants to eat. Then I also think about who might not have eaten, to make sure there is enough. Also I noticed in Sidi that there is not a big responsibility with the water issue. Meaning while I was there it was the same people getting water from the well. A kitchen manager could also check on that task and find different people to get water.

In general I liked the way dinner was prepared. It seemed organically to me. One thing I noticed is: the same people cooked together. There was no change in the group structure. But that’s maybe because people like to cook with the people they want to spend time with anyways?

Overall for me, a community short term or permanent needs a community manager or at least a kitchen manager, making sure that tasks regarding the kitchen for example keep running smoothly or at least keep running. It would also help to agree on a set of “recommendations” in the beginning. As for example what does “a clean kitchen” mean? If everyone has the same view and agrees on the same factor it is much easier to stick to those “recommendations”.

So long! I would have loved to stay longer and be a part time community manager. Maybe next time! :slight_smile:

I always stick to this three sentences: sometimes I swap 1 and 2

  1. first thing to do in the day is something for the community
  2. second thing to do is something for yourself
  3. always leave a place nicer than you found it!

Love Ceylan

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Fortunately, these logistic issues were not very common and someone would usually go and fix the shortage - but I am pretty sure that if some of us, who ended up doing things more often than others, would eventually grow frustrated without some kind of division of tasks and clear responsibilities. I was happy to do more because I stayed for a shorter time, in terms of supplying the space, but I could also see some people who also came for a brief moment felt not responsible for neither cooking nor water or dishwashing. Maybe it was a lack of communication.

I also think having a community manager would be very helpful - and I could always do it for our projects on site. This would make easier both logistics, by having someone to check on tasks and hurry up the slackers, but also to develop some program and build and eventful space. I think we did it very well with Matthias in Nepal - we organized plenty of various meetings in just 3 months, and created a pretty amazing network, in times when the internet was scarce and the country in pieces. I’d be happy to brainstorm and prepare another iteration of an OV keeping these ideas in mind and to adapt them to local reality - which needs to be carefully considered in case of countries with very different cultures, religions, and customs. It could have been an extremely enriching time if we, for example, managed to create more informal meetings and exchanges with the locals - for sure our residents from MENA region had a bit of an easier start, language-wise, but for me it’s a pity that the space is so isolated and I have to now catch up learning about Morrocco travelling on my own :slight_smile:

Ok, that’s off the food topic. Coming back to it - i think it would be great if we dedicate a big portion of our next festival to food talking, as Alex has already suggested.

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I have never lived in a group situation where all the work was evenly shared by all in a natural self-organizing way. But I have seen it become that way after a group sits down and talks it over and finds a balance.

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Hey Celan,

Lots of great ideas in your post. I definitely agree with the need for a set of recommendations that would be visible in the kitchen space so that everyone knows what the basic level of expectation is: e.g. no dirty dishes left on the side/in the sink
I also like the idea of having something to make it clear when food is coming towards the end of its usable life (easy for vegetables, harder for processed food) I would recommend using something like they do in commercial kitchens in the UK, which is to put a day sticker on all products on the day they enter the house (can also be used for leftovers after they have been cooked) That way each person who buys food is responsible for labelling the day they went shopping.
It also means that 3 days later the person in the kitchen has some idea of what is ready to be used, what needs to be thrown away, what is fresh and what needs using first, etc. Maybe even a special box that sits in the fridge and on the table that says “i’m about to be thrown away, eat me quick” to encourage people to not waste food. That’s something that could easily be done whilst people are preparing breakfasts for themselves/others.
The water issue i think is likely to be unique to Sidi Kaoki, but it is worth highlighting. I had a couple of occasions where i asked other people (that i noticed weren’t always carrying their weight) to accompany me on a water trip. Once the person refused, but generally people offer to help when asked. I guess the question is if its possible to have a system where volunteering to do a necessary task is preferred over being asked. Otherwise there is a burden on some members of the community to always be remembering what is needed.
Again, this is about having clear guidelines for everyone in the space. And as it is ultimately the people living in the space that police these guidelines in needs to be explicit rather than implicit to avoid confrontational situations, or miscommunication of meaning.

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Do you think that it’s easier to create that situation in a system where the majority of the participants are long-term residents?
I wonder if it’s as easy to do if there is a high level of temporary visitors. Then the burden is on the permanent members of the community to perform oversight. This is fine if there’s a strongly established culture within the group, but harder when the culture is still emergent.

I had an interesting conversation with @natalia_skoczylas about how if i was setting up a space from scratch for the first 4-6 weeks i’d employ a few people to come in and set up the kitchen and cleaning practices. They’d live alongside everyone and contribute in all the other ways, but they would be responsible for developing the culture of cleaning and food in the space. I idea would be to habituate the best practises as quickly as possible.

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That hiring people idea sounds useful, if it came down to it, but I would hope it would not be necessary. With a strong group of long-term residents it is pretty easy to give visitors an orientation where what is expected gets spelled out.

One thing I know is, not everyone is good at cooking but everyone knows how to clean. One thing that is helpful is to figure out how much maintenance is needed for X people living in X space so it can be determined where a baseline is, because dirty dishes in the sink is pretty obvious but what about keeping the bathrooms clean? What about laundry for commonly used items like dish towels? Also, it is a valid point to have someone monitor the food supply so it stretches far enough between runs to the store, or stays within budget.

One balance that has to be looked at with a group (I think I have mentioned this before, not sure) is how to balance the physical organization with the atmosphere or “vibes” in the household. I think is it important for everyone to consciously agree that they are of equal importance. Some people are naturally neater than others. But some neat and orderly people get upset and unhappy when their standard is not shared by others in the group. What do you do if that person is always kind of angry at the others for not pulling their weight? And what if those less concerned about physical order resent being told to clean up all the time? This is why these things need to be talked out - because there is no one way to get it right and the correct balance varies depending on the specific individual residents.

You could make a kind of grid where one line goes from industrious to laid back, and the other line goes from happy to not happy (or something like that). In the old “grasshopper and ant” story, which for me was always presented from the ant point of view, industriousness always takes precedent over good feeling because not being industrious means you might starve or freeze. But who wants to be pissed off all the time? But again, someone can be friendly and happy but always the last to get up off one’s tail and chip in. I would describe that as a form of passive/aggressive behavior.

Also, in my experiences in group living, I found that these conversations were more needed in the earlier days when we were just figuring out how to live together. After a few years, we became better at keeping the physical and mental planes in balance. Plus, living in the country especially, but in the city too, it becomes clear to all before long that you have to work hard just to survive. It’s just that if one loses one’s sense of humor in the process, then what exactly has been gained?

One thing in discussing these matters that I think is important is to keep the one-to-one arguments under a kind of control by agreeing that matters of physicality and the group atmosphere are everyone’s business. And that it will go better if a kind of quorum is present so others who might have less emotional investment in a given encounter can provide perspective. Even just one other person can thus provide a “fair witness” function. In practice, this means that when arguments erupt, or when there is an excessive “muttering under the breath” resentment, that, given it becomes inefficient to stop everything and spend the day sorting it all out, it is important to not let things go too far. When you get to the point that when talking something over becomes unavoidable it might be a conversation that generates more heat than light, so to speak. Thus, it will go better when others are present.

It is is an ongoing problem that doesn’t take care of itself, then I suggest calling a meeting with all hands to talk it over so the balance might be found.

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(like when @anique.yael created the unique Edgeryders version of Shakshuka :sweat_smile:)
@anique.yael I’m glad to know that you were able to spread the tunisian food culture and i am even more happier that you created your own " Edgeryders version " of it .
hope you liked it guys

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As usual John, your first hand experience of the issues at play is invaluable.

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Thanks. I didn’t touch on going to the store for supplies or carrying water from the well, but these are as important as any other part of the chain that gets people fed and the place cleaned up. It is easy to chow down on that bread in the morning!

Somewhere up there we were talking about nutrition and food economics. One thing I remember from living in a large collective where food was either centrally grown by us or bought at the store and distributed by us according to how much we had. (It got pretty specific like 1/2 banana per person per three days and things like that.). Food was seasonal and like most people, families, or groups, we had fatter weeks and leaner weeks. Some very lean, but that is another story.
We almost always ate hot cereal for breakfast. Big pots of the stuff can go far for less money. But in this cycle where sometimes we had more of one thing than another, we would often hav different choices on different weeks. And being a young and inexperienced guy who never worked that hard physically, my own body became for me a kind of lab to see how well one cereal did over another.

Corn meal - tastes good but I was hungry by 9 o’clock…
Wheat farina (Cream of Wheat) - same thing but lasts till about 10.
Oatmeal - much better…could make it to lunch or close to it.
Multigrain cereal with soy flour - good tasting if you like very hearty food, so maybe not what you would choose, but it was the clear winner for energy and lasting into mid day.

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