did the architects say why? when you negotiate with “entrepreneurs” or building companies you can always include a clause in the tender saying … we want X % of materials reused. (materiel de reemploi in french)
I’m not sure what you mean here, could you explain again? Thanks!
If all of this isn’t clear than i propose it be put on the agenda of the next plenary and have another clarification round
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We also have a meeting planned with the architects next Tuesday (online at 17:30). Another idea is maybe to join the meeting and ask all your questions to them directly.
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for those interested: the results of the survey: to be found under ‘casco and finishing contract’ under team building folder.
I will ask the architects the extra questions linked to the conditions people put for chosing for option 1
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We missed the deadline to fill it in (didn’t capture that it was until lunchtime), but have added our answers in the excel file.
To make things clear for future Reeflings, the way we usually work is to add the clarifications directly in the proposal. Would this be feasible?
Adding it to the agenda of the next plenary I thought was something we agreed to last time. Am I wrong?
An argument in favour of option 1 is “it goes faster, and this is good for people with a bridge loan”. This is because people with a bridge loan need to move in after 2 years. What I’m saying is that this also holds for people who are renting, and that in my understanding we have an implicit commitment to finish the works within 2 years. So even if we go for option 2 (as said in the Blueprint), things need to go fast enough so that the finishings can be finished within 2 years after the start of the works.
Does that land with more clarity?
some answers allready from the architects concerning this topic, will integrate this in the proposal at some point…
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Option 1 (1 entrepreneur pour le casco + finition): moins chère, est-ce que ca veut aussi dire ‘une qualité inférieure’? Answer: Non
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Pour l’instant nous sommes à 13 unités, avec Oak (s’ils continue avec nous) on est à 17. Est-ce que c’est ok de vous dire le 17/12 qu’on sera au minimum 10 pour l’option 1, ou faut-il dire des 24 unités, combien d’unités vont pour option 1 et combien d’unités vont pour option 2?
Answer: Oui, Ok. On pourra communiquer aux bureaux d’études pour voir comment adapter leurs honoraires à cette donnée. -
Quand devront-ont dire combien d’unités vont pour option 1 et pour option 2?
Answer Le choix devra se faire avant de démarrer le dossier d’appel d’offre. Donc dans longtemps.
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To reformulate my questions maybe a little: I am worried that we are stuck, meaning we are getting a delay (including for the moment we can re-start to recruit).
I am also worried that the advantage of option 1, (as I understand it) a small reduction in the cost of the studies of the experts, does not outweigh the lock-in in the future, meaning we are reducing the choices we will have in the future.
Looking at the replies from the survey, it seems to me that there are at least 3 (out of 8) households who chose option 1 that are setting conditions that will land them in option 2 (e.g. because they want “encastré” tailor-made wardrobes). And I also worry that at this stage it will simply not be possible to get enough clarity on which options will be included in option 1 exactly.
All that - the delay we are getting (cost) and the slightly lower cost we could be getting if we decide for option 1 right now (benefit) - make me think that the costs of letting this drag on for so long do not outweigh the benefits.
If some people want to handle their finishings together with one contractor, that will still be possible, but I think that’s going to be much easier (because clearer) if done at a later stage. That means it will come at a small extra cost, but from what I understood the amounts are really insignificant.
@reef-building, can somebody please bring some reassurance about 1) what kind of delay we are building up because of this, and 2) what the concrete plan is for getting to a collective decision on this in due time?
Hi @reef-building . It seems that this discussion has new information in the light of yesterday’s remarks from our notary. May I request that, as you prepare the proposal, you consult with Mark? I find it important to hear the voice of our coach in this debate. Someone told me he actually did serve as maitre du chantier, so he has firsthand experience about the potential pitfalls of running a big construction site as a self-managed group.
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As maître de chantier (someone working for the entrepreneur) or as maître d’oeuvre délégué (someone working for us)?
I am guessing the latter
I just spoke to a friend who is an architect. She confirmed that working with a single contractor is highly recommended and that managing many individual preferences can become a nightmare in a co-housing project. She gave a telling example where the owners of one apartment wanted to put in floor tiles that were just a little thicker than the standard ones, requiring the base floor (“la chappe”) to be made a little thinner.
She is familiar with the large co-housing project in Ghent. Cohousing Bijgaardehof – Onze plannen voor de Malmarsite bij de Dampoort in Gent
It seems to be a good thing that we are thinking this through at this early stage.
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@Lee
question to the architects:
" Vous avez indiqué qu’à ce moment on ne doit pas exactement savoir combien unités vont pour option 1 et combine unités vont pour option 2. => est-ce que ce n’est pas possible de dire qu’on va pour les deux options (et on ne sait pas à ce moment combien de personnes vont pour l’option 1 et combien pour l’option 2). Si jamais au moment d’appel d’offre on constate que personne va pour l’option 1, peut-etre ca nous coutera un peu plus chère au niveau des devis des études techniques, mais est-ce que ca posera vraiement un problème/autre problème qu’un petit surplus un coût?? Si oui, pouvez vous expliquer le problème?"
Answer: “Nous allons écrire aux bureaux d’études pour leur préciser cela et demander qu’ils adaptent leurs devis.”
I called francois friday morning to be absolutely sure if I understood this well. So they are going to tackle the ‘issue’ differently: They are going to ask the bureau d’études to give price offers for the different options. The lign was not so great but i clearly understood they are not blocked any more right now, and our decision ‘option1/option 2’ can wait. I will come back to this point on Wednesday when i see them, but for me this decision is not prior any more.
In light of the discussion with the notary, i think we need to figure out certain things (in the coming months)…
- if option 1 goes forward, how will the accounting be handled => @reef-finance can you take this up
- blueprint vs advise notary => @reef-building : as alberto mentionned, maybe good if we consult Mark on this one. You (lee) are the keyholder, how do you propose to handle this (can we contact them asking for a meeting?)
When i had them on the phone on Friday, i asked for an update of the planning by Wednesday when i’ll see them
right now, no decision needed any more. The way i understood it, we will have till the phase of the ‘Dossier de demande de primes’. (but will ask confirmation of that on Wednesday)
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This one is easy, because the entrepreneurs will always issue one invoice per unit, even doing the building of the casco (source: Mark).
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As mentionned in the post above: the choice of ‘option 1/option 2’ can be taken at a later moment.
fyi: Dave added his preference in the survey as well
Here are the answers to the questions you all asked:
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‘CASCO + finishing by one company’ : cheaper, does it mean lesser quality?
Answer : no -
‘CASCO + finishing by one company’: are the products used, made of sustainable materials? Could we chose a general company who rather works with sustainable materials?
Answer: we could define which materials should be used, in a limited range of products, but this could hold sustainable products. We will define the exact references of the desired materials for the general company -
Do you think there is a big range of possibilities on the level of sustainable products? Is there such a thing is e.g. more sustainable tiles, can we chose for clay in ‘CASCO + finishing’? I don’t know if on that level there is a huge difference possible between ‘CASCO + finishing’ and ‘CASCO’
Answer: If you want a finishing with very specific materials, better go for ‘CASCO’. -
‘CASCO + finishing by one company’’: Could we negotiate with the general company to, at least, use 10% of recuperated materials?
Answer: To discuss with the company that we will choose. But because of issues of responsibility and guarantee, companies don’t really like working with recuperated materials. -
‘CASCO + finishing by one company’: is it possible to have an anti-slip flooring?
Answer: yes -
‘CASCO + finishing by one company’: is it possible to have a glass screen for the bath tube that is more safe for children than the common screens?
Answer: yes, but for example for the sanitary ware, we will have to define a reduced range of products: e.g. 2 models of lavabos, taps,… -
Certain people ask for built-in wardrobes. I suppose it is possible to go for ‘CASCO + finishing by one company’ and once these finishings are delivered with the general company, to contact you with this extra demand (after the standard finishings)?
Answer: yes -
You have indicated that certain things at the end of the ‘chantier’ can be left out so it can be done by the reefling itself (or having it done by another company). Certain people would like to do that with the bathrooms as well. Do you think this could be negotiated with the general company?
Answer: we think it will not be appreciated. This takes away the most profitable part for the general company et it creates a sharing of responsabilities which is better to avoid. If you want to do that, you need to go for CASCO. -
Similar to the previous question: some people would like to do the lightning themselves.
Answer: If it’s just placing the lights, (luminaires), that’s ok -
Is it possible to have a view on the choices of finishings (e.g. tiles for the shower, the sinks, the wooden floors, the doors,…?
Answer: No, these choices will be made together (we and you together), while working on the file ‘appel d’offre’. -
If we choose for CASCO now, could we at a later moment still change to ‘CASCO + finishing by one company’?
Answer: yes -
‘CASCO + finishing by one company’: Will it be possible to choose for the type of heath pump (recuperation of heath via air, soil,…) or will it be one option only (no choice)
Answer: For the heath pumps, whether it is ‘CASCO + finishing by one company’ or CASCO, I think there won’t be any choice on the type of heath pump (to be seen with the technical experts). I don’t see how we can install a geothermal heath pump for only a part of the units, so à priori it will be a heath pump air-water.
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Of course. Just put the common mailbox in cc and go ahead.
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