Hi @Lee I don’t remember if you already talked about the helping circle, but if you are still looking for people, I would like to join.
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Thanks for that. And I’m sorry for also fighting back “énergiquement”. But as much as I don’t mind having tensed conversation, it does mean that it is harder to keep cool and I tend to answer aggressively. That makes for a not so pleasant discussion, and it also seems to be a problem for the group when this kind of exchange happen, so we might want to watch it.
Thanks @els for your answer above, I also still stand by the fact the the exploration was valuable and justified. A few extra words on that below…
It was indeed the underlying assumption for everybody, based on the drawings we got from the architectes. But then the situation changed when we discovered the curtain drama, which meant that the assumption wasn’t fully workable as is. When the info you are working with changes, it seems reasonable to reassess and explore the options available.
Also there was new information as it became apparent that being able to host a family of 4 was important.
So we tried to find creative solutions as a response to both these issues and I still think it was valid to explore option 3, as it wasn’t clear at that point that it was definetely going to work having the guestroom in Idéfix with our specifications and without increasing the budget. I also personally don’t remember it being formally rejected at any point.
As for option 2, a few people were (at least initially) opposing putting the buanderie in level -1, so it seemed right to explore putting it in Obélix (I refer you to Lie’s post here).
Because we are in a group and we have different views on things, it is fair to explore all options; and especially when different people are objecting all the different options, the only reasonable thing is to make a decision taking that into account and giving a chance for a group discussion before the group makes a decision.
The only thing that we might have done differently is to put our discussions and ideas online earlier for people to be updated earlier. But we really hoped we would have all the information in good time, and it seemed important to have the complete and precise picture as we anticipated it to be a sensitive matter…
I would like it to be clear again that we did ask all of this and more to the architects. Because it sounds here as if we under-explore or discarded that option, which is absolutely not the case. And it feels frustrating to not have the time and effort we put in recognized.
Beyond that, let’s see what the architectes come back with, and whether they can deliver an acceptable option within budget.
If we can get all we want with a guestroom in Idéfix, then it will be the easy option as this was indeed our preferred initial plan, and I’m not even sure we will need a helping circle.
But I do agree that increasing our common space already cost us extra budget, and I’m not ready to increase it any more. So if we decide to also put the buanderie in -1, the extra cost for both spaces shouldn’t be over the 65 000 (and ideally it would be much less, as a big argument for moving the buanderie was to save on budget).
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With respect, it is incorrect to say that “information changed”. No news arrived about the parameters constraining our design, like building codes or stability data. Let’s call things by their name. What happened here is that the architects made a mistake by (1) not respecting our programme and (2) not flagging that they were not respecting it.
This is not great, but neither is it a disaster. People make mistakes. So, no drama so far. Let’s acknowledge this one instead of getting defensive-
The discussion was meant to establish that the appropriate response to all this from the group should be something like this:
The Reef: This does not work. Please redraw respecting the parameters you were given.
S&F: But this way we cannot have light from the two sides of the building!
The Reef: Light from the two sides of the building would be nice, but it is not in Le Programme, so it is not essential. The wall and good privacy, on the other hand, is. So, let’s look for a creative solution. If we do not find it, we just build a wall, because that is the mandate of the plenary.
In my view, this issue bounced to the plenary (1) unnecessarily, (2) in a context when we are being told by S&F that we are too slow in decision making. Moreover, it introduced an element of frustration, at least in me: what is the point of spending three plenaries making decisions on the location and size of common spaces if then a relatively minor issue like double exposure leads to reopening those decisions?
I therefore saw it as a learning opportunity: point some attention to it, and make sure we stand by collective decisions in the future.
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Ok guys, trying to take this a step forward …
1. The laundry room
We need to decide on where we want to place the laundry room this Wednesday. This is necessary to be able to proceed with the conversations with the technical experts.
Here are the elements that I gathered from the proposal, the discussions and from my own research:
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Some people feel strong resistance towards making the multi-purpose room smaller. Some others reside on the other end of the spectrum, and wonder how much this room is going to be used, and whether it really needs to be 115 m².
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The laundry room can be 12 m² (= the size of my bedrooms), possibly smaller.
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In Sweden, it is common practice to have a common laundry room (usually in the basement). In one article I found, the number reported is 4 washing machines for 85 apartments. Fitting in 2-3 washing machines and possibly 1 dryer should therefore be fine (even if we will also need some space for a ventilation system).
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To be noted: this will require a booking system, but that’s not something we can’t create.
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In our -1 level, it will be possible to share private cellar space and go for modular systems, so even if the space will be smaller, there should be on average 3 m² of private storage space per unit.
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Some people find it important that there will be enough light and that it will be cosy. In principle this should be possible, even without a window (Google search: shared laundry facility Sweden).
Given the discussion above, I am not sure whether it is worth it to do a selection process between putting the laundry room in the basement or putting it at the side of the multi-purpose room. I would be inclined to bring the proposal to the plenary to put it in the basement, and see how far we get. Any thoughts are very welcome.
What I would not do however, is go into the details of already committing to adding windows to a possible laundry room in the basement. I would first like to hear from the architects and the technical experts what the implications of windows are in terms of future-proofing, e.g. water inflow (floods), heat protection (it will be the only cool place if there is a power cut during a heat wave) and other dramatic scenarios (radio-activity etc).
2. The guest room
For the decision on where to place the guest room we have a bit more time (end of the month), so if need be we can postpone this a little.
To start, my analysis is that the situation has been a bit messy, and that in part this is because some of our wishes in the programme have been not so clear or else incompatible.
Where this got us right now, is that @alberto is objecting against putting the guest room in Obelix. This is on the grounds that this was part of the decision of splitting the common spaces between Obelix and Idefix, and that 66 m² for a common living room only is too much and too expensive.
Sarah seems to imply to take this as the starting point indeed:
The question then is “can we have everything that we want?”. I’m afraid the answer to that is no, but that doesn’t mean of course we can’t make a compromise somewhere.
This is the list of things that people find important (for as far as I understand things of course):
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Possibility to accommodate a family
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Soundproof & privacy
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Keeping the common living room space intact
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Access to the back garden
This is where you start to play around with compromises and/or creative ideas such as sliding partition wall panels and what not. For the latter, we asked the architects last time, you would need an anchor point, meaning you can’t attach these panels to a window, so you would need to insert at least a small cement wall (i.e. splitting the window to the back garden into two). This also means that you can’t postpone this decision indefinitely.
My proposal here would be that the volunteers for a helping circle @Sarah (?) @mieke and @alberto come forward with a proposal to the plenary meeting of 15 February, presenting a couple of options (glass walls, movable walls, fixed walls, …) and that we decide by a selection process. How would that be for a way forward?
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I also came to that conclusion, I guess we didn’t hear any strong voices against it during the plenary, so we can see whether everybody can live with that option at this point. I feel that taking the option of windows out of the picture might change things a bit, but let’s see.
I’m not saying that we necessarily need to keep the option on the table, but we need to get the facts right and be fully clear on the reason for objecting. I’m not sure I understand “it was part of the decision of splitting the common spaces”. I don’t remember it being part of that decision, and in fact, looking back into the document of pros and cons we discussed at the time, it does seem that we didn’t settle on the location of the guestroom (e.g. “If guestroom would need to fit in reefonly zone: big enough guestroom?”).
I’m not trying to be difficult, as i said, I’m perfectly fine with putting it in Idefix. It seems reasonable to choose it for the proposal as a lot of people seemed to think it was better not having the guestroom in Obelix, and I don’t think anybody had strong feelings against putting it in Idefix. That for me is good enough a reason.
Just a few clarifications:
- did you ask the architects to rework something for a guestroom in idefix? Are they going to come back to us with a proposition?
- you talk about sliding partition walls: are we letting go of the specification for solid walls then? I guess that’s what you mean when you talk about compromises, and the question that we have to work out then is what level of soundproofing can we expect with these kind of options
- If we come up with options, do we foresee to have them validated by the architects before consenting on it, and if yes, when would be the deadline to send them out to them?
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With regard to process:
Alberto – I’m trying to understand if we have a governance (or working methods) problem, as you suggest. You clearly believe that a decision had been made to put the guest room in the Reef-only zone (and that therefore it has been a waste of time discussing options), but having spent the last half an hour reviewing proposals and plenary minutes, I’m not sure it was. For the record, I am personally very much in favour of the guest room being in the Reef-only zone under Idefix, but I’m just not sure that we have agreed to that yet…
In the plenary of 1/8/24 we consented to including a guest room in our list of ‘asks’ to the architects, but we didn’t specify anything about location. Lie added that it be a part of the Reef-only zone later when she consolidated the info afterwards, but that wasn’t part of the group discussion or consent, a point that Els made at the time (Le programme v3: consolidated for the architects - #6 by els).
Here we consented to splitting the common space between Obelix and Idefix, and nothing more. Although the guest room featured in all the various pros and cons discussions, it wasn’t a feature of the final decision…
If this is the case, then you have a point. But I don’t remember having this discussion as part of anything we consented to, and I can’t find any record of it in the plenary minutes…
I’m not sure that the plenary has spoken on this particular point, but I’m happy to be corrected if I’ve missed something…
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With regard to the proposal:
I actually thought that the discussion at the last plenary about where to put the buanderie/guest room was quite productive, although perhaps I have to say that as the facilitator 
When we took the temperature with a round on what people’s starting position was, nobody seemed particularly against having the buanderie in the basement. Therefore, I’m also in favour of @lee’s suggestion to bring a proposal to the next plenary to do exactly that, and see if we can deal with any concerns or objections that come up in the resulting rounds…
Concerning the guest room, the round at the last plenary gave a more mixed picture. Roughly half were strongly in favour of option 1 (guest room in Idefix), half ok with either option 1 or 3 (guest room in Idefix or Obelix) and one household was strongly in favour of option 3 (guest room in Obelix). Therefore, I think a helping circle of any interested parties would be a good step forward.
In light of my post above, normally I would say that it should diligently consider both Idefix and Obelix as options for now, leading to a selection process. But I also think that having it in Idefix could potentially be consented to, unlike the Obelix option, so perhaps the helping circle could focus on the Idefix option as the basis for the proposal. However, it might also be a good idea for the helping circle to explore the Obelix option if they find that any aspect of their Idefix proposal looks problematic or contentious, rather than starting from scratch after the plenary (in the unlikely event that we can’t consent to the Idefix option)…
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Reading Els’s recapitulation above, you find that the architects – on the basis of le programme – proposed a “Reef zone” of 66 m2. This was much larger than the requested living room (40 m2). By putting the guest room (16 m2) in the same block, they made a common space that was still somewhat larger than requested. The difference could be attributed to the constraints imposed by the site.
(emphasis mine)
I have to disagree. We went through all the pros and cons of a specific configuration, which had the guest room in Idefix. We mentioned, for example, the separation of the guest room from the possibly noisy activities in the multifunction room; we mentioned the possibility for the guests to share the reeflings-only living room with us, etc. We also made it clear that Idefix would be used for the Reef Zone, and Obelix for the multi-function room, and not vice versa, as in the proposal from the architects.
Also, I insist: a Reeflings-only living room of 290,000 EUR is too expensive.
In the deep democracy shuffle (did I get the name right?) the case was made – by Lee and me, at least – that having the Reef Zone in Obelix (where now is O1) would enable a guestroom with a mezzanine, increasing its capacity without adding more surface. People mostly agreed this was an advantage, but not enough of one to make them deviate from the Idefix solution for the Reef Zone.
The overall outcome of all this is that we were still deciding, in January, on the execution of le programme (August). Hence my frustration and alarm on governance.
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The ‘soft shoe shuffle’ 
@alberto - I agree 100% with all your reasoning about why we should put the guest room in the Idefix Reef-only, but not that it was clear to everyone involved that this had been decided. It’s not at all a problem for me that we disagree on that part, but I do think that your frustration and alarm here highlights something that we need to learn from and adapt to, which will have a positive effect on both our decision-making speed and our group discussions. As Lee has been saying for quite a while now, we have to be clearer, particularly during plenaries, about what we have decided on or agreed to, and make a meticulous record of it. I wonder if the decision log needs to be a bit more comprehensive, and perhaps filled in at the time of the decision, or by whoever takes the minutes…
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I also understood it this way and I am in favour of that idea.
A comment by @Joannes during the last plenary also made me reflect more about the location of the guest room… I would like to plead not to rush the decision about the guest room—(“buildings learn, and so do we”). Once we move into the Reef, we’ll get a much better sense of how we use the space, how often guests visit, and where a guest room would make the most sense.
What does matter now is making sure the common areas in Idefix and Obelix are designed in a way that could fit a guest room later if we need chose what would be the best location. In the meantime, we already have solutions—there are spare bedrooms, and as @ChrisM mentioned once (please correct me if I am wrong), in the cohousing in New Zealand, the guest room was barely used, at least much less than imagined because visitors would stay in rooms of people who were away instead of the guest room.
So would it be an option to wait and see? This way, we make the right choice at the right time, instead of guessing now.
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Postponing the decision doesn’t work, as we would need to make provisions beforehand.
The guest room is in the programme of August 2024, so it is not possible to just go back on it.
I think it’s also important to not extrapolate the situation of Earthsong Cohousing (New Zeeland) to us. First of all they are located in the countryside, so I’m guessing their units are three times as big as ours. That makes it easier to accommodate guests. The second difference is that we have quite a lot of expats, who tend to have visitors who stay for a long time. Unless you are offering to have some of our minis’ grandparents to stay in your spare room for a week?
I don’t think we have enough info to decide on a guest room right now. I personally wonder how we all see the use of this guest room? I have an idea about it, but I have no idea how the other households think about it. I wonder if expat families having people visiting over would like to host them in their apartments or how they see the use of the guest room (just a simple bed because the rest of the facilities that they will use will be in their apartments - or not?) I really feel that this decision is best made with experience. Instead of rushing into a choice, l would prefer to give ourselves time to understand how we’ll actually use the space. As we live here and see how guests come and go, we’ll get a clearer sense of what makes the most sense for everyone.
But yes, at the same time I do think that we have to make sure now that the common areas in Idefix and Obelix are designed in a way that could fit a guest room later if we need chose what would be the best location.
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We discussed it and they would be willing to, but I think the order of things is that we now first get a clearer view on what it is that we want before we go back to them.
I would first list the options and gather the feedback from the group on that, and only then go with a small list of options that could be consented to to the architects. A possible timeline could be to consult the group on the 15th, and bring a proposal on the 25th. If you would have time and space, there is still time free on the agenda of this Wednesday (5th), so that’s also possible.
When you communicate with the architects, may I please insist to always use Edgeryders, or else put the Protonmail in cc of all your communication? This is a working method that makes sure that everybody can follow what’s going on, and also that we can ensure continuity in case somebody needs to take a break.
I have a lot of doubts about putting permanent walls (glass or cement) in Idefix for a guest room. I think it will limit the possibilities to use the space. I also have concerns about blocking the access to the back garden.
From a first search on the internet it seems that soundproofing is possible.
In sociocracy this phenomenon is called “navigate by tension”, which means that tensions are just a symptom that point to the need to be clearer. So let’s try indeed to do exactly that. IMHO this is not so much an issue of the decision log (in theory this should just be a copy/paste of the meeting minutes). It’s a reflex that should be developed by the facilitator: before we conclude a topic, let’s voice / repeat the conclusion and check whether the note-taker has written it down, and only then do the consent round or move on to the next topic.
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Agree.
Agree. In fact this is my main source of frustration. Decision-making must be a one way street. Once we decide, we need to resist the temptation of reopening. We all have our pet issues that we would like to see revisited: as we make more decisions, more will come. Reopening might lead to better decisions, but it costs time.
I am also not ready to agree to a 290K semi-private living room.
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I’ve started looking at options for sliding doors and glass walls (@Lee : not just ignoring your concerns, I’ll prioritise sliding doors, but I’m not sure I fully agree, but given the short timeline again, I think it’s best to explore all options at once rather than discover one does not work and having to start over).
Not sure how many I will have time to do, @mieke @alberto maybe if you are still interested and have some time, let me know (maybe on signal) if you also start doing some research so we don’t double down on the work.
This is indeed what we agreed on, last time was a bit of an emergency mode chaos.
I agree on summing up decisions in general, but I don’t agree with you on identifying the problem here and your read of what happened.
But I’m not going to explain yet again my perspective as the points that have been made don’t seem to be making their way accross and this online argumentation seems to get us nowhere in terms of shared understanding.
It’s quite hard not to react though, could I ask that we stop making comments altogether so that we don’t have to continue this back and forth.
Thanks!
I’ve created a follow up document in team building/Avant projet/ guestroom.
I already called some entreprises but we need to send a email anyway, as well as others (although maybe we don’t need all of them).
Maybe just say there if you’ve sent an email?
Thanks for this.
For me:
- glass wall => OK, given soundproofing.
- sliding wall => OK, given soundproofing.
- regular wall => OK, given your drawing that leaves a “corridor” to access the back garden. This last seems to me the simplest and coziest (for the guests) solution, but, repeat, the other ones will also work.
For me, you already did most of the legwork, at least on the glass solution. It seems that, with about 3-5K + VAT we can build a glass wall for a bedroom with about 43-46 dB isolation. We will ask D2S how good that is. On top of that, we will need dark curtains. Seems doable.
hi @Lee , i changed it (referring to this post). But it hasn’t updated in your post. Could you update your post? thanks
Done (I broke the link)
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@alberto - yes, I agree, all these solutions work, although I’m less keen on a proper wall.
After the discussion at plenary, Mieke and I are thinking of circulating a survey to gather expectations and potential ideas about the guest room, as per Lie’s request.
Do you want us to share it with you beforehand?
Re cost, for sliding walls I think the main issue that will need to be cleared with the architects is the price of supporting structures, as these are actually hung up to the ceiling. I remember them saying that beans and posts were quite expensive but that might have been for those supporting the upper floors.
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