Can we and should we pull off an official Edgeryders organisation?

Quick thoughts here…

As regards decision making I have been thinking along these lines before. As the group expands it would be proper to fit everyone in according to their local chapters, this in turn is possible to manage via dunbar groups (no more than 125-150 people per group) with each group assigning their own benevolent dictator who represents the consensus of the group in any overarching decision making.

The group size is a bit big or current numbers, but this will expand and should be taken into account.

Not enclosing participation in specific groups…

Not sure if I interpret this in the way you meant to express it,

yet I just realize that I would personally not want to enclose participation within any specific local group.

From my point of view, individuals are not enclosed. Individuals can network, and legal structures can be tools to support specific tasks.

Hence, the movements, the networks, the people, and the objectives + overall intentions would never be enclosed within any organization, nor need to be subject to specific politics and decision making of one specific organization,

though various people, forming flexible networks, can associate and dissasociate, while using legal tools if and when needed to support common objectives…

Not enclosed, just fresh…

Thats not at all what I was implying Danté…

What I mean is, look at the way it functions now, as in right now, as posed to what it was when we began…

There were people helping out and encouraging new members, and it was relatively easy to get a scope on what the whole thing was about, but now its a bit tricky as the number of both users and the content contributed goes up and up.

If edgeryders aims to become any or all of what is cited below then it needs a degree of accessibility, and the best way to do this is have a tier-able platform with entry points from individual to local to gloca and organizational levels of the platform.

A lot of the reason for me saying this has to do with the notion of chapters of edgeryders in various locale’s working on local problems. If info is scattered all over the platform this is much much harder to organize and so it makes sense to be able to approach you local council, university, students union, youth club or whatever and say, hey we want to do this…and be able to organize that data cohesively in one place.

Do you get me? I dont mean closing anything, by all means leave the door wide open, but past a certain threshold within one room, that is, with too many in one room, it gets impossible to make sense of what everyone is saying.

Attention around morphing Shared Objectives, not Organizations ?

Yes, I understand potential intentions in regards to dunbar number…  and personally like such approach, so that everyone can have an overview and understanding on ongoing processes.

I also link it, and what you mentioned in some previous post, to an approach taken by Phyles ( trans-national community supporting businesses - though I would prefer the term global - )

http://p2pfoundation.net/Phyles

I personally certainly do not exclude the possibility for local convergences, if there is a critical mass, but then I consider that can be one of the objectives ( limited in time or not ).

I imagine a speciifc legal tool, can be used , if needed, in support of well defined objectives, with specific understanding of its role , without actually needing it to represent nor enclose dynamics between individuals. ( no hoarding of resources , no hoarding of information , nor conditionalities imposed , nor using its ( temporary and revokable roles ) in claiming long term legitimacy in its communication towards other institutional supporters )  I believe this can be a challenge, as often , from what I observed, there seems to be a tendency at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

excerpt :

<< The “iron law of oligarchy” states that all forms of organization, regardless of how democratic they may be at the start, will eventually and inevitably develop oligarchic tendencies, thus making true democracy practically and theoretically impossible, especially in large groups and complex organizations. The relative structural fluidity in a small-scale democracy succumbs to “social viscosity” in a large-scale organization. According to the “iron law,” democracy and large-scale organization are incompatible. >>

As to resolve such kind of issues, while finding solutions in regards to transparency needs , and economics related to attention and shared engagement,

I currently like to collaborate to a libre software development initiative called “netention” - which is a portemanteau for “network” and “attention”.

More details :  www.automenta.com/netention  ;  http://netention.org/  ;  http://blog.automenta.com/2012/11/building-instant-enterprises-with.html  ;  http://blog.automenta.com/2012_11_01_archive.html  ;

http://blog.automenta.com/2012/10/combining-netention-and-gss-into.html  ; http://blog.automenta.com/2012/10/netention-semantic-editor-design-options.html ;

hmmm

yes, I tried to use netention the other night but it was awfully confusing and so I gave up. Maybe I was in the wrong area of the site, but, well things need a well developed user experience team making sure that participation is accessible.

As for your persistent notion of controlling enclosures. That is not what I am saying.

As far as I am aware the Edgeryders platform is open source…

what I was saying about fresh group pages or ‘platforms’ serves to do exactly what you try to do by ‘taking the emphasis off the platform’ it serves to facilitate local groups meeting - in the real - to design and enact localised projects while also being able to access the global portal…

A legal entity is neccesary because if you want to effect chage on a significant level you need to be able to access the streams of value available through EU funds, VP communities, interaction with social finance etc.

Like Christopher Alexander says: when designing any mechanism, if wondering where to put the next piece, look for the biggest gap in scales and go to work there.

This is exactly the intention. I understand people with complex ideas as to the whys and hows of generating pure democracy but might I remind you that democracy is equal say among self interested parties (according to Aristotle anyway) and so its logical consequence is its group based corollary, Aristocracy (not Oligarchy) , on the other hand a politic is comprised of individuals all acting for the good of the group/whole, which formulates, as a logical consequence, a series of oligarchies. There is no black and white either, I might add, so we choose our colour amidst so many greys and do the best we can. Idealism is nice, but highly impractical.

Thanks for all the links by the way, mine is coming from the heart.

no operational prototype yet + definition of Edgeryders ?

Hi Involute Conduit,

There is no operational prototype of netention yet.

So I’m not sure what you tried out ?  ( perhaps yo utalked with Seth on this ? )

An alpha version will be rolled out soon, starting with a semantic chat tool, which can then be tested out for further development.

As for the software used to support this Edgeryders platform, it may be Drupal , though my question is about the data.  It is possible to export the data ( like, all the posts, all the profiles, etc ). Who controls access to the server on which this data is saved ?

I’m interested in staying in the loop of what you may be expressing in terms of fresh group pages.

Yes, the localised approach is of interest - though again, around what objectives ?

I personally realize there are already all kinds of local groups and movements.  They may not be called Edgeryders, and may not have any need to be called Edgeryders, but they may share values and interests with what is expressed till now by people interacting on this Edgeryders platform.

For the moment, I understand Edgeryders as an attempt to crowdsource for policy making…

Hence, still somewhat vague ?

I am interested in understanding better what will be meant by the word Edgeryders, other then in reference to a first conference in Strasbourg, a potential second one in Brussels, and this online platform and other interactions that derive from it…

My current impression is that each has its own agenda, its own interests and involvements, and that some of our interests overlap…   and that there may be some kind of understanding that Edgeryders could be an interface to express such interests and engagement in a way as to also converge institutional resources and at the same time use the venue to create some kind of ( policy influencing ? ) communication platform with such institutions ?

Openness issues, and Edgeryders as a meta-community

Hey Dante, thanks for all your recent input :slight_smile:

“As for the software used to support this Edgeryders platform, it may be Drupal , though my question is about the data.  It is possible to export the data ( like, all the posts, all the profiles, etc ). Who controls access to the server on which this data is saved?”

About the data: Edgeryders content is Open Data, as stated on the legals page when signing up. As far as I understood Alberto, it is intended to make data dumps available (like for open science purposes etc.). But it seems that the details are not yet worked out, maybe also because I raised some privacy issues about that.

As for hosting and software of this platform, it’s also my personal impression that the project is not as open as it intends to be. I’m involved with the Edgeryders software side of things a bit more now (see this thread) but as a user of this platform, I know the feeling you have: it’s still “somebody else” in control of this platform and everything we contribute, and it does not matter so much if that other one is called Facebook or otherwise. But: there’s a discussion about this, and progress here on Edgeryders to implement a community-steered platform development process (see my other comment).

"I personally realize there are already all kinds of local groups and movements.  They may not be called Edgeryders, and may not have any need to be called Edgeryders, but they may share values and interests with what is expressed till now by people interacting on this Edgeryders platform.

For the moment, I understand Edgeryders as an attempt to crowdsource for policy making… […]

My current impression is that each has its own agenda, its own interests and involvements, and that some of our interests overlap…"

From my understanding of the Edgeryders 2.0 project, it’s no longer centered on crowdsourced policy recommendations as the original Edgeryders project was. I rather understand it as a kind of “meta-community” that supports and connects all these local groups and movements that you list, once they make themselves known to the rest of us on this platform.

So I largely have the same impression as you: everybody here on Edgeryders comes with existing own initiatives and projects, but has shared interests with others. And from that comes synergy. I acknowledge your efforts in making such synergies happen with decentralized tools like Netention. Yet, as in computing, P2P networking stuff is hard, it takes time to develop that sort of thing. So I see still a place for tools that rather follow the common client-server paradigm, or in this social realm, maybe call it “community - hub” paradigm. As long as the server / hub is free and open in its source and operation. Edgeryders aims for that kind of thing, in my impression.

01:10 cards on the table - all jokers no fool

Hi again Dante,

What a day…crazy…the things people do to eachother, I wonder why…in any case, that is my personal life, and this, well this is also my personal life… I guess I dont want to make that distinction. and yet these last days I have put ‘my’ life on hold. And yet, yes, I am human, and will to stay that way, and so I’ll be off for a couple of days looking after people who need me ‘for real’. But beforehand I have to address a few things…

For the last few days my head has been buried in, among other things, a call for proposals to see if theres a fit for a possible next phase of edgeryder development.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, narky and all as I may get at times. There are a lot of us here and there are many ideas as to what the direction and why. I tend to be pretty focussed on what I am looking at at any one time, whether that be broad or narrow scope, for the last few days its been pretty narrow and so now I should explain, which I hope I can do without offending anyone.

You asked about the objectives of local interaction and localised groups. I am always thinking ‘accomodation’ as in facilitation, how can we make one thing out of a tool and a process, so that the process becomes the tool. So far ER has been about policy informing, but that phase is done it seems, at least in the passive format, this much is clear. Funnily its not from the ER perspective I say this, but from the perspective of the European Commission as voiced in their last call for proposals on the Progress program. They are using this call to initiate a new kind of process that is active participatory policy intervention and experimentation. In other words, they are offering to fund partnerships between governmental authorities- from local through regional councils, to national scale- to take policies and tinker with them, hack them , if you will, but according to a strictly measurable methodology. The aim is to allow these governmental authorities a financial cushion, a safe zone, in which to try out new ways of doing things in an active and participative way, and so test new ideas, get informed about what works and what doesnt and scale positive solutions.

So that was my narrow focus…you know the way it is sometimes, you are so close to something that you mistake the part for the whole…In the thick of doing the various things I am currently consumed by doing (by no means just ER) I have needed to be very conscious of the parts, and you are speaking at the level of the whole.

So I am off to look after my beautiful and infinitely loving girlfriend , as she has just been through a rough patch of a day, with lots changing, and when

I get back, before I tune into narrow again, I will address the big picture. Most of what you say is perfectly fine, probably all of it! Just so you know…

Please bare with me…

Brickstarter ? : participative engagement model for institutions

Hi Involute Conduit, and All,

Found out about this  ( Finnish ) Initiative, called Brickstarter,

which seems to have much in common with the approach you described in your last post.

They may be partners for the New Edgeryders Developments ?

http://brickstarter.org/

http://brickstarter.org/an-introduction-to-brickstarter/

The core of Brickstarter is a prototype for a web service that provides a shared platform for citizens to suggest and build possibilities into proposals into projects. Brickstarter is a:

  • Forum for citizens to articulate possibilities, and start aggregating attention
  • Public story-telling platform, capturing the ebb and flow of debate around proposals
  • Community fundraising tool for shared initiatives
  • ‘Real-time dashboard‘ displaying  the collective desires of a community that can be mapped against institutional strategies and legislative frameworks, enabling bureaucracy to work more effectively
It uses the community-building tactics of social media, orientating them towards increased citizen engagement in sustainable developments within their community. It reinforces physical interaction and documents the story of proposals. Through crowd-funding approaches adapted from services like Kickstarter.com, it unlocks new sources of capital for projects, based around new kinds of representation and participation.

Brickstarter spells out how proposals touch municipal strategies, legislative frameworks, and political structures in order to pragmatically shape proposals. Funding generated through Brickstarter is intended to primarily enable detailed proposals, as the evolution from vague possibility to realistic proposal is a key hurdle. "

It describes a participative engagement model for institutions and fosters a more responsive social contract.

We are working with various partners, including municipalities, in order to find a productive terrain to host and develop these ideas. Our intention, as Sitra (the Finnish Innovation Fund), is not to run such a live service, but to develop and produce the blueprints and practices such that others might adopt and adapt them. We are making the prototype as a way of flushing out the right questions, to find out what needs to be done. "

young people living on the edge

Ciao

How is the Assembly of the Edg organization

I have an idea edgeryder identity card, young people traveling over the spider network, share their skills,edgeryders projects are nodes in the network.

EdgeRider credit digital European Social Fund,young people living on the edge for their well-being and that of future generations Edgeryders Assembly gathers and unites young people causing creativity, suitable for every edgeryder, my community and Edgeryders, you? I am Edgeryder Simone Muffolini born in Gardone V.T., 9/19/73 etc. …Edgeryders Project: 12 new life of old traditions, free Comunity for 100% farmers),

do: working the land to prepare it for sowingbreeder: interdependence for the regeneration of the Earth,

clean green streets: care of the forest and its roadsinvent: recovered energy.

I mean that every young person has the right to work happy, happy to move independently, happy with their story, glad for those who grew up after him.

Youth without values, victims of politics that has allowed the spread of invasive patterns,looking for traces of common sense.

More discussions and collaborating to summarise our discussions

There have been a couple of blog posts on the platform platform which are relevant to the conversation here -

Edgeryders are going into the banking business and staffing up! are you with us?

and

On engagement and being the change you want to see…

I’ve also started to write a summary of the discussions around Edgeryders organisational structure here, testing out the kune group collaboration communications tool.

Double vision? I have not been drinking!

Just noticed there is a duplicate but different titled version of Vinays “Edgeryders are going into the banking business and staffing up! are you with us?” blog post.

The version I just found, titled “Edgeryders Venture Social Capital” has a pertinent comment about governance of a transnational Edgeryders organisation.

social financial ventures and alternative finance

Not sure if this is the best place, but as the reply comment I sent to the two different places of the social venture posts Darren mentions does not seem to show up, I’ll paste it here for now…

In reply to

http://edgeryders.ppa.coe.int/blog/2012/11/edgeryders-are-going-into-the-banking-business-and-staffing-up-are-you-with-us/

Dante:

You might be interested to plug into ( or may already be )
alternative complementary currency networks ?
 
Various nodes may be entrance points - generally most organizations or individuals who have been involved for at least a few years in alternative finance or alternative currencies.   Perhaps you ?  I can be.  Though its nice to be able to connect to people active locally.
 
///
 
Will be interesting to see the approach taken.
 
An organization doing ethical venture capital, based in San Francisco ( but connected globally )
 
It invests, lends, and gives
 
http://rsfsocialfinance.org/services/
 
it is itself, at least in terms of its philosophical background,
related to the Anthroposophic networks, which inspired banks - the ones with licenses ( to create credit ) , such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triodos_Bank or the GLS in Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLS_Bank
 
//
 
And such approaches can be complemented with alternative currency architectures...
 
///
 
For example, communityforge hosts about 400 ( or a bit more ) community currencies / local exchange systems ( LETS ) who use its drupal extension(s).
 
http://communityforge.net/
 
The drupal extensions themselves are under gpl license, for anyone wishing to use them on their own drupal platform. ( There is also a inter-lets option , for exchanges between users of different exchange communities , and a hospitality network with members related to the wider networks http://route-des-sel.org/ )
 
using a mutual credit monetary architecture , based on sufficiency - IOU's created through mutual debt between peers , not needing centralized debt to a bank.
 
///
 
As you may know, there are also other systems in development.  Some of them focused on enabling a p2p relay / clearing approach in financial transactions. ( or at least, that is how I understand it )
 
For example, Ripple http://ripple-project.org/
 
It can be used to transfer and clear various kinds of units.
More recently, a commercial service is being developed, which may use the open source technology for the transfer of, for example, Bitcoins...
 
http://ripple.com/
 
////
 
There are also other architectures and approaches to alternative finance.  Some of them more "mainstream", based on mainstream commercial bank credit.
 
For example, this tool which may make it easier for groups to manage their money ( up in 2013 ? )
 
https://holvi.com/
 
///
 
And then offcourse, also other kinds of banking , such as saving pools.
 
http://p2pfoundation.net/Savings_Pool
 
///
 
Lets note that unless one has a license to open up a bank, one requires 100 percent guarantees in existing credit ( or paper money ).
 
In the Eurozone, or at least in Belgium, I believe one requires a minimum of 6,8 million euros of equity, which in itself does not guarantee to be able to receive the license ( I imagine various other conditions may apply ? )
 
////
 
Hence, a cooperative banking model, with 100 percent backing, may be possible.
 
Such as the JAK BANK ( a savings pool )
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAK_Members_Bank
 
Some interesting videos about JAK bank online :
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2pj109Cr8
 
more :
http://www.diigo.com/user/dante-gabryell/jak
http://delicious.com/deliciousdante/jak
 
Some contacts have been made , as there is an entity related to JAK , called CAJA, which publishes a paper, and supports the set up of similar kinds of structures in other places.
 
I am also aware that a danish guy is developing a software to further support such kind of savings pool.  Get in touch with me if you are interested in finding synergies.
 
///
 
Then, there is also another model which requires 100 percent equity backing.
Its the Freigeld model.  Or "Regio Currencies".  Such as the Chiemgauer.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freigeld
http://www.diigo.com/user/dante-gabryell/freigeld
 
In its architecture, it includes what is called "Demurrage", or a cost to hoarding money.
Hence this creates an incentive to circulate the currency in the  economy of users of such currency.
 
Various models exist. One model enables purchase of the currency for mainstream commercial banking credit / or mainstream paper bank notes, 
 
and enables to re-exchange the freigeld for such currency; with a slight loss.
 
Both demurrage and the slight loss if on needs to re-exchange it for, lets say, euros or pounds ( for example, a shop which requires to pay some of its suppliers in euros ),
enable to create small margins to fund the management of the system.
 
The demurrage and exchange cost also creates an incentive for finding others within the economic network of currency users, who can provide similar goods or services.   Instead of purchasing products from the other side of the world, people may prefer purchasing a local product.    Combination of non hoarding / circulation of money in the economy with incentives for enabling it to flow locally.  This aims at the strenghtening of the local economy.    But one could also imagine such approach within a network such as Edgeryders, which could be more spread out over space.
 
///
 
I wish to go a few steps further, or rather, facilitate synthesis of various of these alternative economic and financial practices,
 
by enabling such information systems to build up contextual information,
which in turn can support individual and emergent decision making.
 
Some software is in development.
 
You can read some introductions via
http://www.automenta.com/netention
http://netention.org/
 
My interpretation of the potentials of netention, or at least, applications I wish to use it for,  is, through descriptions of future and current contexts or desired contexts,
including needs, available or potential resources,
 
agents / entities / individuals / organisations
can make engagements towards each other.
 
As engagements / pledges and transactions based on these interdependencies unfold,
reputation of the users builds up, in effect creating visibility for additional forms of alternative ( reputation and social ) capital.
 
Various currencies can easily emerge, as they can be created based on contracts defined as metadata.
 
For example, a mutual credit IOU expressed in hours can simply be metadata related to a transaction between peers.  If peers choose to trust their networks of peers, using for example ripple like protocols, such hour IOU protocol could be cleared through other transactions.
 
The context building through netention like tools also enables queries and matching between needs and offers, or also enables to understand where there may be needs and what solutions may require development.
 
A netention like tool facilitates allocation of attention based on our own ( intentional ) preferences and on our histories of transactions ( if we choose to )
 
...
 
///
 
Probably much more to say on thses topics...
Looking forward to further conversations and , hopefully, shared engagements around shared visions.
 
more links shared via
http://www.diigo.com/user/dante-gabryell/alternativeeconomics
http://www.diigo.com/user/dante-gabryell/alternativefinance
http://www.diigo.com/user/dante-gabryell/complementarycurrencies
http://www.diigo.com/user/dante-gabryell/alternativebanking
 
also see p2pfoundation links ?
 
For example Categories on the wiki such as
http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Peerfunding
 
etc