Organisation: I’m totally fine with whatever works. On second reflection we may indeed not need the entire Coordination Group, so if you want to go ahead, please don’t hesitate.
Net or brut: I am almost 100% sure it’s net
Toilets and shower: my guess is that there are no minima, because:
Otherwise it would have been mentioned in the RRU
During one of the visits, I remember the architects saying something like “of course you can have a toilet of 1 m², but then you’ve got to be prepared to be with your knees against the door”. Did somebody back then not even make a joke about the fact that this is often the case in Belgium?
Toilets: I am almost sure though that for apartments there is a requirement that there is a door between the living room and the door of the toilet (otherwise it is considered as a studio)
Minimum surface areas that you suggest: shall I make an edit to the “small units” post?
Ok, I can look at it! I think you have summarized it already above, so I’ll do that but I’ll check if there are other details to change or not, and will check in before changing everything
No, I agree, there are no official minima. But I was wondering what is the “physical” minimum for each of them. So that we can put that in the size estimation…
From what I can see, the minimum minimum is probably 1,5 - 2m2 for shower and toilets (see this site), and probably 1,5 for just shower (see photo 2 of the diaporama) and 1 for toilets (see joke!).
It might be a good idea, and maybe also an edit in the “how to calculate” the price of your appartment post, as people might need to refer to that to calculate how much square meters they need.
Looking at the numbers again though, I am wondering if they really are the minimum minimum?
For example for a 2 bed-rooms, based on the RRU, the minimum would be 51m2 for kitchen+living+ bed rooms, then add 4m2 for the ‘local technique’, it goes up to 55m2. Then you have to add bathroom so let’s say 57m2. Then there is only corridors left, but I don’t think it does add up to 13m2, does it?
I couldn"t find info online on what is the minimum size for an appartment, and the corridor question is a bit tricky…
So could it be an idea to check with the architects?? We could ask them how much do we have to account for for corridors, and/or whether the numbers that I have are for “standard” appartments, but could be reduced for the “minimum” size.
(Quoting myself! Giggles!)
So I’ve prepared a document with the changes I think need to happen to the size calculation and the confesseur post/new post (internal link).
Pinging @ugne : maybe we have a phone call to see what we have to coordinate on? @Lee if you already have suggestions, let us know!
As expected for the price calculation, it make quite a signicant difference: for the studio of 30m2 net with a garage, 6m2 terrace, and a 6m2 cave, the price goes from 155.000 to 230.000 euros (and I think that in the first estimate, the terrace and the cave were bigger).
@Lee, @Julien : are you saying that these numbers are net numbers? I’m not sure I understand. It would make more sense that they are brut no?? Because if it is reported in the small unit post that the minimum size is 28m2 net for a studio, and that matches to 35m2 gross, which is the number that I have…
@Sophie_B : could you please take care of this? Thanks!
The minimum given by the RRU are net square meters or as the RRU says “surface minimal de plancher”
The architects majorate those with 20% to get the brut square meters, this is with walls included. They do this because the site we’ll find will have to host the walls too of course (if I express me good )
Going really into the nitty gritty, I would add the following recommendation:
Make a note that a parking spot will not be mandatory, and that we’ll find a solution to share the burden of the total number of mandatory parking spots.
Recommend that people add a terrace space that equals 10% of the surface of their unit (net), so 7 m² of terrace for a unit of 70 m² net, with a minimum of 5 m². We’d need to check the details with the architects, but there are indications that this is going to become mandatory (see e.g. this article in Bruzz).
It’s just a suggestion of course, but can it be an option to create a separate post on how to estimate the surface of our units? This could include several suggestions, like e.g.
The minima imposed by the RRU
The size calculator (with a link)
The minima as calculated above
Have a look on websites like Immoweb, and get a feel for the size of different apartments
Have a look at the apartments of other Reeflings.
On the last point: I measured the different rooms of my apartment and I’d be happy to share this in a dedicated post. This should make it easier to see what a 70 m² unit looks like (mine), and that it’s easy to imagine to cut out 20 m² in total. And then if maybe a couple more people join in, we’ll become experts at estimating surfaces and feeling confident about what we could live with?
This is not a detail, so I’m grateful you insist. I looked at the “small units” post again and scrolled through the RRU once more, and I think that my conclusion is that the “small units” post is confusing, in that it presents units of 35 and 55 m² net (studio and one-bedroom apartment), but that based on the RRU these could actually be smaller, such that 35 and 55 m² become the gross surfaces.
That being said, in the correspondence that Julien had with the architects on the financial estimate, at some point they recommend us to stick with net surfaces, because this is what is commonly used, and also what’s going to go in the notary’s deeds. So that would mean that in the calculation guidance we keep things as they are, i.e. we make people estimate the net surface, then have them multiply that by 1.25 to arrive to gross m², and then multiply that by a 4000 +/- 10%. Does that make sense?
Hey!
Thanks for your answer!
I understand the confusion no!
So what I understand and think we can do is this:
The numbers that I have at the moment could indeed be the minimum gross surface for an apartment (and I personally wonder if they could be less, we’ve asked the architects about that), but for clarity purposes, we should include net numbers in the new post on estimating the size of the appartment.
So the post would become:
Net surfaces for minimum size
@Julien: this is exactly the reason why we insist so much on documenting everything on the forum. This way we don’t loose information that is dug deep into the mailbox.
Julien and I worked on a new calculator tool that includes a calculation of the price (internal link) and I’ve adapted the posts accordingly (internal link).
Waw! That looks great! This is a fantastic step forward!
Two questions, one technical + 1 organisational: (ping @Sarah and @Julien)
I don’t understand why there is a 15 m² (net) difference when going up one bedroom. Isn’t the minimum surface for a bedroom 10 m²?
Do you think it would be feasible to upload the document your shared above as a post on Edgeryders? If yes, I can add the link in the presentation for Wednesday.
Good point… Doesn’t really make sense indeed. Maybe the thinking was that you need more room to be comfortable when you are more people? Which would indeed indicate that these are not minimal but standard appartment sizes…
We’re waiting for an answer from the architects on this…
Yes it was the idea to make it a post and to make it as quicly as possible !
I think I’ll do that, and for the appartment sizes I might keep the “waiting for confirmation”, and think of what to do for the appartments (I think I will put a minimal and standard size, will report back soon
That makes sense. For financial estimation purposes however I think the minima are the more interesting. For the presentation I’m working on a format like this: https://c301.nl.tabdigital.eu/f/86980
Could you maybe fill in the minimum surfaces, so I can complete my table in coherence with your calculations?
On a different topic: I’m afraid that nobody is going to find your documents on Nextcloud, as this is more a finance than a buildings issue. Would it be ok for you to move them to Team Finance’s folder? https://c301.nl.tabdigital.eu/f/4334
With that said @reef-finance: Sarah and Julien have done a lot of work to help people estimate the cost of their units (see posts above). Maybe this would be something for you to take over when you have the capacity?
The numbers of the architect don"t actually always match the RRU minimum and are not consistent in terms of how much they add to that minimum…
So Im not sure anymore whether to include them.
I think I will include the minimum surface as per the RRU, indicating this doesn"t include corridors, which may add a substantial amount.
So it would go:
Studio: 29 net, 36 gross
One bed room: 49 net, 61 gross
2 bed room: 58 net, 72 gross
3 bed room: 67 net, 83 gross
4 ber rooms: 76net, 95 gross
I don"t think I’ll round these up or down in the post as the idea is to give the absolute minimum. But I guess in the presentation you can probably round them as the objective is just to give an idea…
For info about corridors, I’ve just measured my Mum’s and it is 5,5 m2 for a 2 bedrooms! Not nothing! We can certainly re-arange our appartments to not have it or at least minimize it, but I think people should be aware of the fact that it is not a negligeable expense…
(if I express me good 
)
. Giggle feedback loop!
