Plenary meeting 15 June 2025

The Reef
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Hello @reeflings and @reef-exploring,

First a quick poll to see who will be there. Timing: 14:30 - 17:30. Can you please fill it in?

  • Yes I’ll be there
  • Nope, not this time
0 voters

Then a quick check-in on the agenda points (same as the 05/06 meeting that was cancelled). I have the following points on my list:

  • Plan for the basement: @els

  • Owners’ representative: @joannes can you please let us know by when you are planning to submit a proposal with a quantified budget?

  • Paths for the garden: @ChrisM same question as above.

  • Budget for sustainable insulation: @els

  • Fixing the price and the safety margin: documents are in the agenda (same as last meeting)

These points are the last points we need to confirm before we can organise a GA. Whilst there is no strict deadline for this GA, it is something that we need to get access to funds from the Fonds de Logement, and given the fact that we will very shortly reach a point where we don’t have enough money on the account to pay the bills, I would really like to get on with this now.

Additional question to @RichardB and @Sarah: I am imagining that the report about the meeting with Vosberg contains interesting information that could inform the decision on the owner’s representative. If that would be the case, would it please be possible to let us know by when we can expect the (uncensored!) report? TIA!

For convenience, link to the agenda (Team Reef > Plenary meetings > Agenda): Login – Nextcloud

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hi @Lee , can the following be added to the agenda: common storage space in the basement?

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I’ll connect with Odile in the next couple of days, as she is chief researcher at the moment. Will come back with a date after that…

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Report on its way (could be a version pending some clarifications from Alain).
Re the AMO, the main thing is that the banks might not want to finance it, so we should make sure we can pay for it ourselves. And the decision on taking one or not should be based on architect’s experience and project complexity (but Joannes got into direct contact with Alain so he will have more detailled info on this.)

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What does this mean? @Sarah

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Assistant Maître d’Oeuvre (not Architecte …)

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Hello @reef-full,

Just a quick reminder that the next plenary should ideally be a moment of truth and consenting to the last proposals.

Because we are lagging behind on our recruitment, we will shortly be receiving some bills that we won’t be able to pay without an extra effort (call for capital or short-term loan). Normally we should be able to unlock money for Dave’s part of the site from the Fonds de Logement, but for that he needs the minutes of the GA. Concluding on the last questions about the budget and the plans is therefore a bit urgent now.

So here’s my request to everybody who is presenting a proposal:

  • Can you please finalise it ASAP, have it peer reviewed and post the link in the agenda document?

  • If you expect that the proposal includes some possibly contentious elements, can you please flag this in dedicated post, so that we can shorten the time needed to get to consent during the meeting?

(it would be really great if we won’t have to postpone any topics to the next plenary for petty reasons)

Thanks a lot in advance!

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Until this evening, it didn’t look like there would be any info to inform possibly budgeting for garden paths. But thanks to the marvellous @Odile, we now have two quotes to base a proposal on. I will post it mid afternoon tomorrow…

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Link to thread: Budgeting for a contractor to install the garden paths

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A post was split to a new topic: Fonds de logement

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@reeflings notes from the meeting with Vosberg are now available here: Login – Nextcloud

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Hello @reeflings,

Last update:

New items on the agenda include:

  • an introductory Powerpoint
  • a proposal on the basement
  • a proposal on contracting out the garden paths

It would really help the efficiency of the meeting if everybody has had a look at these beforehand.

Logistics: we start at 14:30 and we are at Joannes’ and Anne’s place. The address is on the calendar and in the agenda document.

@reef-exploring and @reef-associate:

  • Kind reminder that we have the habit of starting the meeting sharply in time, so grateful if you can arrive 10 minutes early to settle in.

  • In case not seen yet, we have a document in the Onboarding Package that explains how our plenary meetings work: Login – Nextcloud

  • We also have a slide one “artful participation” in our Facilitation training slide deck (link). Below a screenshot as a general reminder for everybody:

    985605c9e608ae241390226e1d218a59e4e89a51_2_1035x580
    985605c9e608ae241390226e1d218a59e4e89a51_2_1035x5801035×580 51.3 KB

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Hello fellow Reelings,
I am on a break and cannot access Nextcloud, so I don’t know if the minutes of yesterday are already online.

I would like to react to the pathways budget proposal consent process and the insulation.
I really want to stress that I appreciate the initiative to develop garden pathways and want to clarify that I’m not opposed to having a budget, quite the contrary. However, I think that we need more information before proceeding with this budget planning. I would really like to understand how other cohousings have approached this (and lessons learned) because I thought that there were cohousings who didn’t pay for a contractor.
I am sensitive to cost implications because for example, the recent increase in “basic” finishings from €750 to €950 has already impacted my budget planning, making me more cautious about additional expenses. That’s why it didn’t feel right to me to consent at this point.
Regarding the insulation, even though I told Els initially that I wouldn’t object, I would prefer to object. I mistakenly thought that the removal of the solar panels budget would compensate for the higher insulation price, but now I understand that this isn’t how I should have looked at it and it isn’t coherent with my objection to the pathways budget at this moment.
At this moment, I wouldn’t consent to more expensive insulation, and also object to the current proposal about the paths.
So sorry for the confusion and hope this somehow makes sense to you.

I am off course open to discuss and would be happy to hear your honest feedback.
(I am back on Wednesday).

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Hi @mieke,

Thanks a lot for your message. The nuance and the inclusion of possible ways forward reassure me that it’s going to be fine to find a solution to this.

(my inner governance nerd is secretly also a bit exciting that we get to test out our process for an absentee who doesn’t agree with the decisions taken at the last meeting :smiling_face:)

Below you can find a structured message with a proposal on the way forward. Happy to hear how that lands with you.

1. Parenthesis on governance

Just for everybody’s clarity (so addressed at everybody), given that we are trying this out for the first time, here’s a couple of clarifications on objections and disagreeing with decisions taken.

  • Objecting in absence is not possible in sociocracy. The reason is that we make decisions based on collective intelligence, which means listening to each others’ arguments before coming to a conclusion. So if you are not present in the meeting, it’s not possible to just object.

  • When someone who was absent during a meeting doesn’t agree with a decision that was taken, our governance document says they have 48 hours to ask the group to re-schedule the proposal for the next plenary.

  • An objection is defined as “a reasoned statement of what can go wrong when the decision is approved”, with “going wrong” defined as “harming the purpose of the group” (see facilitation training slide deck, slide 10, Login – Nextcloud)

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2. The decision on sustainable insulation

During the rounds with comments and concerns, several people (including myself and @alberto) commented that sustainable insulation seems like a great thing to have, but probably also a nice-to-have, and a bit at odds with our attempts to cut costs wherever we can.

Therefore what I suggest is that we re-schedule the topic for next meeting, and go through another comments round rather fast and discuss together what we want to do with this proposal, and how we can hold all people’s needs in the best possible way. Would that work for you @mieke?

3. Garden paths

On the garden paths I am a bit less clear on the way forward. What I understand from your message is that you are ok with having a budget for garden paths, but that you would like to do more research, because you really want to make sure that it can’t be done for a lower budget. Did I get that right?

If that’s the case, then a first step I’m proposing is to move the rest of the discussion to the thread that we already have on this topic (Budgeting for a contractor to install the garden paths), and continue the exchange over there, so that we keep all the information in one place.

Ultimately of course, we’ll work towards re-scheduling the topic for the plenary of 25 June. It’s just that I prefer to have all the information in one place.

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@lee thanks for your post, much appreciated.

Yes!

Yep. I will check out the other thread.

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Just for clarification, it turns out that this is based on a misunderstanding. More details are here: https://edgeryders.eu/t/avant-projet-clarifying-the-budget/20868/57

TL;DR: nothing changed to the price of the basic finishings, it should give you a nice and comfortable apartment. For safety, maybe good to foresee some extra budget for a kitchen and little extras, but nothing outrageous. More details will follow mid next week.

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Hello @reef-full,

I’ve been thinking a lot and talking with people since the last plenary (were I couldn’t be present), and I would like to share my position: I will accept the proposal on the budget for the pathways in the garden, however, I stand by my suggestion to talk to other cohousings about how they did it, as this my give us a more realistic figure. Also, I would like to add to the proposal that we will definitely not use all the foreseen budget if we don’t need it. My concern with setting ca. €20,000 now is that we might end up spending that full amount even if we discover cheaper alternatives later. For some people a few thousand euros doesn’t make a difference, but for me it does, and I’m sure it does for other people too. So I wanted to raise this concern because I was afraid that once we fix a budget, we wouldn’t be able to adjust it anymore since we had agreed upon it. Adding that comment to the proposal, would make me consent.

Regarding the insulation, I consent if it fits within our €3500 casco budget. With that in mind, I’m okay with adding the insulation.

My understanding is that once we have set the budget at €3500, we will commit as a group to not going over that figure, which will bring some reassurance to me, to some other members, and to the new members we are trying to attract.

Chris has said that at the next FM meeting, which will be sooner than the usual six weeks, we will continue to discuss tensions with regard to budget and finances. I, personally, would quite like some clarity about where we stand, individually and as a group.

Finally, I want to thank the group for receiving my concerns gracefully :slight_smile: It’s not comfortable for me to be in this position, but my future in the project depends on me holding it…

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