I’m starting a new thread to keep track of this information.
@reef-finance @Lee @Sarah
Some feedback after my meeting with the insurance broker today:
insurance for the board members of the Sosim
- they couldn’t do a simulation because they need the bce number
- it should be between 400 and 800 euro’s
- there shouldn’t be a big difference between insurance companies (not on a content level or price level) because it’s a legal insurance
- what makes it rather 400 or rather 800 euro’s?
- montant du chiffre d’affaire (the turnover?)
- valeur d’assurance / montant à assurer (the insured value?)
- is it better to take our insurance with Ethias as we have our insurance for the asbl with Ethias? They said (but didn’t sound convinced) it’s better to take an insurance at another company, in case there are disputes between the asbl and the Sosim
- It includes ‘défense en justice’ (defense in court) and all mistakes made by the board. It doesn’t include volantary mistakes (e.g. a board member stealing money)
- the insurance covers all board members, future and current ones, we wouldn’t need to keep them informed if there would be a change of the board
Assurance chantier tout risque (construction insurance)
- can be taken by the ‘maitre d’ouvrage’ (project owner = us) or the entrepreneur. But he seemed it’s more logic that we take it, as we might not only work with 1 entrepreneur, and it also covers the architects work
- it should be taken before the start of the work.
- when taking it , we need to have a view on when the works would start. So now is too early.
- you could take it one day in advance, but better to take it a month or so in advance. (You need to indicate the date at which the works would start, so in theory you could take it now allready.)
- It will be obliged by this contract to take a ‘état des lieus’ (inventory?) of all the immediate neighbours.
- I asked what the immediate neighbours were: he said that’s not clear. It’s not only the once touching the site, best also some neighbours in front of the site (which might have damage because of drilling,…).
- this taking of the inventory, is done by the architects, so i guess our architects will know what and who
- it is possible that a neighbour will refuse an ‘inventory’. In that case we should write ‘une recommandé’ (registered letter) saying that he/she refused an inventory and thus cannot claim us for any damage done by our works
- this insurance ‘stops’ when people move into their appartments, or start to do the interiour paintings. From that moment onwards, the insurance will insure damage due to the works for another 2 years.
- The insurance insures 2 things: damage done to our building we are constructing + damage done to third parties (neighbours,…)
- How much does this cost? It’s expressed by a ‘taux pourmille’ and on top you have a tax. The taux pourmille is negotiable and also depends on a questionnaire we need to fill in it (he gave the example: if you would chose to install a ‘pompe à challeur géothermique’, you would need to drill profoundly, this creates a risk, certainly in a city as brussels where you have a dense network of subground metro’s, pipelines,…). He said he was doing a project of 1750000 and said the taux pourmille was 2,31. He also said, the higher the amount/budget, the lower the taux pourmille/the more negotiable it is. He thought that for our project it would be around 20.000 euro (18000 for the insurance and 9,75 % for the tax = 2000 euro).
- la franchise would be between 2500 and 5000 euro
- there might be a correction of the amount to pay at the end of the works. The taux pourmille is calculated on the total of construction costs (architect costs, costs of the work done by entreprises, taxes,…). This will be an estimation when taking the insurance and will be reevaluated at the end of the ‘chantier’, so we might have to pay extra at the end
Other insurances
protection in court
- he advised as well to take a ‘protection in court’ (défense en justice) e.g. if the architects would sue us for paying late or we would sue architects, enterprises for delaying the ‘chantier’ too much…
- how much would this cost: difficult to say: between 500 and 100000, depends again on a questionaire that we would need to fill in
RC professionelle and RC exploitation
- didn’t completely get this.
- he said this wouldn’t be necessary in our case.
- one is for intellectual damage (professionelle): e.g. if we would give certain advice that in the end would be wrong
- RC exploitation: if you would be going somewhere and you would damage that company in a physical way. (e.g. you give a presentation at a company and you damage something at their company)
Accident de travail
- in case we would hire people ourselves and pay them ourselves (but then we would need a hr department or sth) then we would need to take this insurance.
- i guess we will only be working with independant people so no need probably for this
remark
- something he came back too in the end and now, writing down things i cannot remember if it was linked to the insurance for the board or the insurance ‘tout risques chantier’. They said we would need to have an idea of our forecast of expenses per year (in géneral) (prévisions par années). And indicate if this would be very different one year from another. (thinking about it, it should be for the insurance of the board members)
- they were ‘sympa’ i have their business cards, and offered to answering any other questions we would have
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Thanks Els!!
I got some info about an offer from DVV that I saved here. I will fill in the questionnaire to get a quote. No signe of ethias for the moment…
I’m not sure exactly who you are referring to when you say “somebody hurting themself” (Reef member or external?), but we decided to not go with an “accidents corporels” insurance at the time ( which would cover for a member of the ASBL hurting themself), and we only got civil liability (ie if we break something in a room that we rent, or we hurt somebody - I’m not sure exactly whether that also includes somebody hurting themselves at one of our events with no member of the Reef being involved in the accident, I can check with them when they answer about the SoSim board)
Two things to note:
- if we expand the group in the next few months, we will need to adapt our contract for the civil liability.
- We might want to take an insurance “accidents corporels” to cover members who have to go on the construction site once we start builiding.
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@reef-finance, @Lee : i finally received a document to fill in from Liantis. It’s under the insurance folder of the Sosim => do we still want a devis, knowing the information i shared yesterday + the fact that the Sosim is not for right away? (and i think he might also make the same remark: as long as you don’t have a bce number, it won’t be possible)
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I think we can put this on hold now.
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i had a first meeting with kb consulting about an insurance for the board members of the Sosim.
Because of some misunderstanding on their part, i didn’t talk to the right person so i have a second meeting scheduled next Friday (15/11/2024).
If any of you would have some questions about this insurance, let me know before friday…
fyi: some brief description about the liability of the board members and the insurance we want to get, can be found under chapter 9 of this document.
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If any of you would want to join… it’s at 11:00, online
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Hello @coral-board : I fwd an email with info to request a quote from ethias, as well as the terms and conditions of their policy.
The form needs to be signed (and of course checked); could somebody take care of doing that and sending it to the relevant address (the contact details are in the mail)?
A few things to note:
- they ask for “les bilans financiers détaillés des trois dernières années”. Not sure what can be used as a replacement…
- they ask : “Au cours des 5 dernières années, avez-vous connaissance, après enquête, de réclamations en cours amiables ou judiciaires faites à l’encontre des dirigeants de votre société, de ceux de ses filiales ou de ses participations ou de circonstances et/ou fautes professionnelles susceptibles de mettre en jeu leur responsabilité civile ou pénale”. I guess you will do the checks that you see fit…
- We have been offered “assistance juridique” by other insurance companies; I’m not sure if this is the same as “Défense civile et pénale des assurés” which is mentionned in the terms and conditions or not, maybe that needs to be asked…
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hi @coral-board ,
could you share me your views on when you would like to have the insurance for the board members of the Sosim?
Personnally i would say asap. And if you share my opinion, i would like to ask @reef-finance to assign sb else to this task, as I am having more than enough work with team building stuff.
I am still going to the online meeting tomorrow (with ugne joining) with kbconsulting, and then
- or i’ll leave it aside for some weeks
- or sb else takes over
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ASAP, yes. Let’s put this on the team’s backlog, @ugne !
In fact, Els, while we are grateful for the help, I think it is fair for you to step down from one of the two teams. You are the only one on both the “hard” teams in The Reef, and remember what Mark says: pwe need to pace ourselves for an ultramarathon, not a sprint. Hopefully we will soon gain some more members to spread the work out.
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i would like to try to still go to the team finance meetings, to create a better link team building - team finance. But i prefer not to take up any tasks within team finance
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A feedback from the meeting with kb consulting concerning the insurance for the board members of the sosim.
(Kb consulting is a kind of courtier)
Acte d’insaisissabilité
- She advises us - for the members who own a property and live in it - to take an acte d’insaisissabilité. This will protect these board members from their house being claimed to pay up when things go bad
- So right now this would be for Lee and myself, even though Lee will sell her house to buy the reef unit. With Richard it’s different, as he is not living in his property and his property is not in Belgium. She advises Richard to see what insurance he might be able to take in Germany to protect him from his property being claimed
- This acte is individual, so if in a couple of months/a year the board changes and a new member with a property where he/she lives in, becomes a board member, we will have to conclude a new acte
- This is done with the notary and will cost around 1000 à 1500 euro/owner
- Ugne will check with the notary
Insurance
- We asked for an insurance that gives protection
- from other board members
- from other members of the sosim (but not board)
- from external parties
- As I had already a first meeting last week, they allready started some inquieries and they said some companies already said they declined the demand. She indicated it’s ‘touchy’ because it’s
- a construction project
- we are 5 board members
- we are 20 - 30 members in the sosim
- we will still need to fill in a file, to precise things
- when asking when we could have a devis she said: end of this year will be hard
- she recommends to also take a protection juridique
checking out companies
- Like the architects she recommends to check out the companies with whom we work.
- The insurance will never intervene when companies go bankrupt, are dodgy… She says that is our responsability to do that, so no insurance will intervene
- Things we can and should do (should there be some guideline written for this?):
- check on myMinFin whether they are accountable
- check if the head of the company has had other companies before and check whether they have gone bankrupt
- ask for an attestation of their rc 10 (responsabilité civile décennal): if they cannot provide this, this might be fishy. Only companies that deliver services touching the stability are obliged to have this rc 10. (interior designer e.g. don’t need to have this)
@ugne : anything to add or correct?
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Great summary, nothing to add.
Waiting for a few other important answers from the notary re abattement & 13 Dec deed signature details. When this is answered, will question them about this, as it’s very strange they haven’t mentioned it to us.
hi @reef-finance & @Lee
This morning we talked to Madame Demoiseaux, notary’s partner and we mentioned the the insaisissabilité. She will look whether this applies to us and promised to come back to us shortly.
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@reef-finance : kb consulting has send the form to fill in for the insurance of the board members of the Reef Coral. It was send to the proton mailbox
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I’ve asked some extra questions concerning the form. ( => Proton mail)