Taxe sur la batisse

[Sarah]

Hi all

So I contacted the commune, and got info about the taxe sur la batisse and the permit fee. I saved it under team finance/estimations (here), not sure if that’s the best place for it…

So from what I understand (please double check):

• the permit fee would be 706,45 euros

• the taxe sur la batisse would be 3,87euros/m2 * 2732 (surface brute totale y c sous-sol) = 10 572

In the architects file, I see they took 65euros/m2 for the taxe sur la batisse, and applied that to 1905 (surface brute totale logement (m2 vendables), with a total of 123 825. So I’m really confused… I will call the commune again to make sure I understood it right.

As regards to exoneration:

So maybe we could actually qualify at least in part, as we are not “à but lucratif…”?

But also in the preambule:

We are not quite fully “un service d’intérêt public”, but I would say we do meet the objective of the commun in some ways…
I will enquire about this as well ( unless somebody thinks otherwise?)

[els]

Thans! Bizar,
but what i’ve understood from the architecs, they didn’t really get it either. If i correctly understood they based them on the matexi data (and think applied it proportionally).
Didn’t know about the exoneration (that’s exoneration for the taxe de batisse you mean?).

[Lee]

It’s a bit of mystery, and it’s kind of hard to find adequate information about it.

Here’s a web page where the 65 euro / m² shows up: Arrete Du Gouvernement De La Region De Bruxelles-capitale du 26/09/2013 arrete du gouvernement de la region de bruxelles-capitale relatif aux charges d'urbanisme imposees a l'occasion de la delivrance des permis d'urbanisme

[Sarah]

It is indeed quite complicated… And to be honest, I have been thinking that we shouldn’t be doing that, and that the architects should know this or would be the ones that can work it out easiest (which the person at the service comptable of the commune also thought so…)…

From what I can see, the document you link to is from the region. And the commune didn’t know about it, so I called Bruxelles Fiscalité, but the person had no idea what I was talking about. And didn’t know who I could call about it…
I tried Urban.brussels but their number doesn’t seem to work. I’ve sent an email…

My feeling is that we would pay this tax if our “dossier” has to go to the region and not just the commune. So that would mean that this tax comes on top of the communal tax…
And I’m not sure that we can know in advance whether our dossier will have to go to the region, because it’s somebody from the region who makes a decision about this at some point. I think.
But again, I feel that the architects would be the ones to know this…

Also, side note, in the document they say that 65euros/m2, is only for certain zones (something about the fact that the terrain is in a zone where a “changement d’affectation” was decided in 2013), and that it is 50euros/m2 in others . Maybe a question for the architects to know in which category we would fall…

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About the taxe de la batisse “communale”, the person made me aware that it is a price /m3 and not m2! So it would be * 4 for the bottom of obelix and * 2.5 for the rest? From the plans I can see the bottom of obelix is 365m2, but I’m not sure if it’s brut or not, we’ll have to check that with them (unless somebody knows that?). Also not sure about the height in the underground.
But so the taxe would be more or less: 365m2 * 4 * 3,87 + (2732-365) * 2,5* 3,87 =28 550 euros. Right? (again, please double check me…)

The person told me they didn’t think we would be eligible for an exoneration, but that we could send them an email (taxes@jette.brussels), presenting our project and they could decide on that. Maybe an action point for @reef-finance ?

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I tried to contact S+F office to ask about the regional tax and about the “aménagements d’abord et raccords au régies” , but didn’t get an answer

[els]

@Sarah

And I’m not sure that we can know in advance whether our dossier will have to go to the region, because it’s somebody from the region who makes a decision about this at some point. I think.
But again, I feel that the architects would be the ones to know this…

i’ll add it to the list of questions to ask them. I agree they should know…

@Sarah

Also, side note, in the document they say that 65euros/m2, is only for certain zones (something about the fact that the terrain is in a zone where a “changement d’affectation” was decided in 2013), and that it is 50euros/m2 in others . Maybe a question for the architects to know in which category we would fall…

If it was 65 euro/m2 for matexi for the same site, i don’t see why it would be different for us…

@Sarah

So it would be * 4 for the bottom of obelix and * 2.5 for the rest? From the plans I can see the bottom of obelix is 365m2, but I’m not sure if it’s brut or not, we’ll have to check that with them (unless somebody knows that?). Also not sure about the height in the underground.
But so the taxe would be more or less: 365m2 * 4 * 3,87 + (2732-365) * 2,5* 3,87 =28 550 euros. Right? (again, please double check me…)

I don’t get wy you do *4 for Obelix (because there are 4 floors including underground), and 2.5 for Asterix/Obelix (why not 3, because they are not full floors?).
To have m3 , you still need to multiply with some measurement in m. (the 2732 are expressed in m2). So you still need to multiply with the height of each floor, I guess we can take 2.5 m as an average height? so 28550 * 2.5 = 71 375

As we don’t seem to get a straightforward answer, the architects couldn’t give us much info either. I think it would be great to know ‘soonish’ (for when we need to take the decision about 'can we afford extra elevators, extra common space)=> is it an idea to contact sb of team building/team finance of The Spiegel. They tried to negociate it, i suppose they could give us more clarity? Maybe asked who their contact was at the commune? Or even Marc, it was sth that was discovered ‘en cours de route’ I think, he must be aware of it, but i guess we would be better off with the person at the Spiegel who dealt with it?

[Sarah]

@els

I don’t get wy you do *4 for Obelix (because there are 4 floors including underground), and 2.5 for Asterix/Obelix (why not 3, because they are not full floors?).
To have m3 , you still need to multiply with some measurement in m. (the 2732 are expressed in m2). So you still need to multiply with the height of each floor, I guess we can take 2.5 m as an average height? so 28550 * 2.5 = 71 375

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I took 4m heights for the bottom of Obelix (because of the firebrigade entry), and 2,5m for the rest. So the volume is 365m2 * 4m for the bottom of Obelix, and the volume of the rest of the project (which include the other floors of obelix) is (2732-365)*2,5.
Make sense?

@els

As we don’t seem to get a straightforward answer, the architects couldn’t give us much info either. I think it would be great to know ‘soonish’ (for when we need to take the decision about 'can we afford extra elevators, extra common space)=> is it an idea to contact sb of team building/team finance of The Spiegel. They tried to negociate it, i suppose they could give us more clarity? Maybe asked who their contact was at the commune? Or even Marc, it was sth that was discovered ‘en cours de route’ I think, he must be aware of it, but i guess we would be better off with the person at the Spiegel who dealt with it?

Yes I thought about that. But re spieghel I don’t think we have direct contact.
But @Lee might be able to clarify it with Mark and/or get a contact?

[els]

@Sarah

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I took 4m heights for the bottom of Obelix (because of the firebrigade entry), and 2,5m for the rest. So the volume is 365m2 * 4m for the bottom of Obelix, and the volume of the rest of the project (which include the other floors of obelix) is (2732-365)*2,5.
Make sense?

Yes, (i was confused a bit), but makes sense

[alberto]

@Sarah , @els, we are running in circles here. We had this discussion a year ago:

Updated financial estimate

Hi @alberto , asked the question yesterday evening. They confirm: it is 65 euro/m2 , also for a new construction. There seems to be some (minor) unclarity though. The architects received all the data/figures from the matexi permit, and there they had an amount of about 100.000 euro for this taxe de batisse, when taking into account matexi’s m2 of logements, they arrived at less than 65 euro. So maybe less m2 to be taken into account than on the current estimation.

Once again, I see a risk of getting lost in details, which slows down the big picture decisions and actions (for example, the common spaces discussion has been in the pipeline since April; the statutes of the SoSim, since October). With respect, I would suggest to move on.

[Sarah]

Hi Alberto,

We went into that discussion because in the last estimate, the architects mentionned for taxe de la batisse: “attention, changement de règlement en cours”. And it was in the context of discovering that a lot of little extra costs weren’t included in the FS : for instance the “raccordement aux régies”, which Lucia thought can be as much as 5000 euros per unit; and in the process of working out this taxe sur la batisse, we are discovering that there is actually an extra 30000 communal taxe to be paid as well…

I know these are detail costs on their own , but if you add up several of these kind of amounts, you may well end up at 10000 or more, and that is not marginal for some people. It might be even more important to know what we are up for as there are also in parallel some talks for incresing the budget in other areas…

So thanks for helping us zoom out a little (I know at least for myself that I have the tendency to go into too much detail, so grateful to be reminded that sometimes ).
But also I think I want to finish this job of gathering the extra costs if we are going ahead with discussing a possibility (or not) of a budget increase. Won’t put too much more effort into it as regards the taxe de la batisse though; if I get a straightforward answer from urban then good, otherwise we probably have a good enough estimate.

[mieke]

@Sarah

I know these are detail costs on their own , but if you add up several of these kind of amounts, you may well end up at 10000 or more, and that is not marginal for some people. It might be even more important to know what we are up for as there are also in parallel some talks for incresing the budget in other areas…

Hi @Sarah, just wanted to say thank you for taking this up, because the money aspect is a sensitive topic and we cannot be well informed enough before we start talking about possible budget increases.

[Sarah]

@els

what is the amount of this Taxe de Batisse: 65 euro/m2 as was defined for Matexi? The reason it is unclear is because they are reviewing this Taxe de Batisse, so not sure it has changed allready or not yet

I asked urban this in august, and they confirmed that at the moment the text we have been working with is still applicable (see my email in the mailbox titled “Demande d’information - taxe sur une nouvelle construction”).

The question though is whether it would be 50 or 65 euros, depending on whether the site is on “une zone affectée par le changement de PRAS” (something about the fact that the terrain is in a zone where a “changement d’affectation” was decided in 2013).

You’ll see that the person mentions that this is not taxe de la batisse and that taxe de la batisse is what is due to the commune. But everybody seems to be confused about that, so I think let’s just call it taxe de la batisse… I’ve saved all the documents regarding these different taxes in a folder called “Taxes d’urbanisme” under the estimation folder in team finance’s folder.

I think it’s good that we get all this confirmed through another source though. Better safe than sorry…

@els

x euro per m2 => what are the m2 to take into account?

• the m2 vendable. In the current FS the architects took into account these m2, they based themselves on what was in the Matexi file (but Matexi didn’t have the amount of common spaces we have)
• do we need to add the m2 of common spaces ?
• do we need to add (part) of the bicycle spaces ?
• can we maybe exclude the m2 of the oaktree units?

.
Here is what the text say regarding the charge d’urbanisme:
.

.
And here is the classification of buildings:
.

So we are paragraph §1er 2°, so 50 or 65euros per m2

.
And the surface de plancher:
.

.
which I think refers to :
.

(from “Glossaire des principaux termes utilisés dans les prescriptions urbanistiques”, which I think is the right document, but could be checked…)
.

→ So I would say that common spaces and oaktree also count
Bikes I’m not sure, I would say doesn’t but I think it would probably be left to the appreciation of whoever is in charge.

Again, probably something to check thoroughly, but I thought I would share the info I did find out so far.

[Sarah]

@Sarah

I’ve saved all the documents regarding these different taxes in a folder called “Taxes d’urbanisme” under the estimation folder in team finance’s folder.

@els , for clarification, in this folder there are 2 subfolders:

• one with the 2 communal taxes: the one for delivering the permis d’urbanisme and one which is apparently the real “taxe sur la batisse”
• one with the link to the arrété for the “charges urbanistiques” which is what we have been referring to as taxe de la batisse

To avoid confusion I name the second one “charges urbanisitques (referred to as taxes sur la batisse)”, as there is a lack of clarity around it. But in the folder taxe communales I left the name taxe de la batisse since it iwas the name of the file and is the actual name of it; but I can see that would have been confusing…
Hopefully we will get confirmation and clarity soon and we can all align on the names… Or do you prefer that we keep the name “taxe sur la batisse” for the regional tax, and call the other “communal tax”?

[alberto]

@Sarah

Or do you prefer that we keep the name “taxe sur la batisse” for the regional tax, and call the other “communal tax”?

I would prefer to use the legal terms.

[els]

hi @Sophie_B ,

The architects forwarded us the mail from the region/commune where it can be found what is meant by logements conventionné: mail ’ Fwd: MGE / The Reef : réunion de projet du 10/04/2024 Chaussée de Jette 469-475’ of 5/12, to be found in the ‘Architects Stekke + Fraas’ folder in the proton mailbox.

" Les définitions de logement encadré et conventionné sont reprise à Article 1er.§ 1 de l’arrêté suivant :

Arrete Du Gouvernement De La Region De Bruxelles-capitale du 26/09/2013 arrete du gouvernement de la region de bruxelles-capitale relatif aux charges d'urbanisme imposees a l'occasion de la delivrance des permis d'urbanisme "

Can you or somebody else of @reef-building read and see this gives some answers. If not we ask the architects for the contact of the guy of the region to ask further questoins.

[Sophie_B]

Thanks @els, will look into it this weekend!

[els]

hi all,

we received the report of the meeting with the commune we had in november 2024 (see post) and talked about it with the architects in today’s biweekly meeting with the architects.

the architects think it’s worthwhile to write to the region to be exonerated for the ‘charges d’urbanisme’ (65 euro/m2 which amount to 126,000 euro) which are charged by the region. They were quite positive during the meeting, towards the exoneration because of oaktree.

@Lee @ugne : which team should take this up?