Final plan for the basement

The Reef
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Hi @reeflings

As the PM of 05/06 is cancelled, I would like to start to collect your feedback on the proposal the architects made for the basement, as this consent is needed for the introduction of the permit (planned end of June 2025).

Link to the layout of the basement: Login – Nextcloud (extra 12 m2 that we consented on, is included)

So foreseen on these plans:

  • Space for the bins

  • Space for the high tension cabine

  • space for the counters (water, electricity,…) and the batteries

  • workshop (20 m2 gross more or less)

  • space for washing machines and dryers: 7 m2 gross

    • on the plans you see there is place for more or less 4 semi-professional machines. Francois (saying he is not an expert in this matter) says you can put a dryer on top of a washing machine or two dryers on top of each other, but you cannot put two washing machines on top of each other, So in total we could have 4 washing machines and 4 dryers in that space (semi professional machines).

    • fyi in Brutopia (29 units) they have 3 washing machines and 2 dryers

  • private cellar space of 90,3 m2

    • With the last survey we had a total of more or less 50 m2 of wished cellar place, for 14 out of 22 units, leaving 40,3 m2 for the 8 left over units. So we are all going to get our whished cellar space! (summary of last survey)

    • the architects put allready names on the different private cellar spaces. The request is/will be to divide each of the currently defined private cellar spaces in squares of more or less 1,5 m2, so the notary has the necessary cellar divisions on the plans for the permit, and later we can see which square(s) will be attributed to who. It will give flexibility e.g. for the future reeflings.

    • Walk (technical engineers) still need to validate these plans, to see if enough technical common space is foreseen.

@reef-full : could you please give your comments and reactions, preferably by 07/06 20:00 so we can go to a smooth consent on the next PM?

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Just to add that this space (as it is common) will also be large enough to be used in a wheelchair :slight_smile:

Personal comment/question: Are we planning on forseeing a common storage space in the basement? Sounds like we could have enough space but not sure what the rest of the group thinks. I was thinking along the lines of bulk food purchases or (ralely used) kitchen equipment but maybe there is enough storage in the common spaces?

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I am in, if there is space left, but that will need a proposal i guess as it demands extra common budget

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Hi Els, thanks for this work. I think I was not very clear on my answers in the survey :slightly_frowning_face: I think I said we would be open to have a common cave if this was more the feeling of the group, but since there has not been a discussion and in general people have chosen common/ private cave, we also prefer a private cave. To me, a common basement is a potential source of conflict and I would prefer not to have to think about this.

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@MariaAM : ok, will ask the change…

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Hi Els,

Thanks a lot for that. To be honest the part on the private storage space is not at all what I expected though.

6 m² as the minimum, and as a result sharing as a default?

One of the points I have been trying to make in the past is that sharing a storage space makes incredible sense, because it creates more space to get in between shelves. Next time there’s a plenary at my place I should show my storage space in the basement just to demonstrate how much space is going to waste because I need to maintain access to the back.

The way it is drawn now, in the corridor on the right, both the storage spaces on the left and on the right are about the width of a door (a bit wider). That makes it easy to compare it to the toilet space in my apartment. So both on the left and on the right, you should imagine that 50% of your space will be left unused if you want to maintain access to what is stored in the back.

So if it were up to me, I would have said: the minimum space for a storage space is 6 m². If you want less, you’ll have to share it with another household.

A visual example would be the spaces that are labelled as “Alberto”. You could imagine a door in the middle. Then there are several options: either you draw lines on the floor to designate what belongs to whom, or - if two households can agree to that - you put three shelves on wheels in it (to save space for manoeuvering) and you indicate which space belongs to whom.

Moving the right corridor to the right?

Making all the spaces 6 m² is not sufficient though, as you can see from the spaces to the right of the right corridor. They are still not much wider than a door, so pretty daft IMHO: how are you going to reach what is stored in the back?

Therefore my proposal for a change would be to move the right corridor to the right, so that the storage spaces on the left become wider, and those on the right become less wide.

Leaving sufficient choice to the new households => divide it into squares and don’t attribute them yet?

It would be so much nicer if the last household that is joining could still express their wishes, and we could see collectively how we can come to a solution that finds the right middle for everybody. The only way to leave enough choice to the new households that I see, is to not yet attribute the cellar spaces.

The way I would do it, is to divide the 6 m² spaces that I described above into slots of 1,5 m² or 3 m². Then we can attribute these when the group is complete, finding a right middle between “first come first served” and meeting everybody’s wishes.

Shared storage space: leaving it open and making it voluntary?

To get even more flexibility, we could not define the surface of the shared storage space yet, but rather let it depend on what is left after everybody has expressed their wishes.

If that would be more than 6 m² (or even in any case), I imagine that this could be a thing that could be subject to solidarity funding? Given that some households want to limit price increases at all cost, why not divide the bottom square in bits of 0,75 m², and ask whether there are volunteers who want to buy one and leave it free for common use?

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Thanks @els , just to understand: those that will have a shared cellar like myself, how to know how much i will need to pay for it (official space that belongs to me)? As i wanted very small cellar. Thank you!

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Hi @ugne

The architects already mentioned the names on the plans, but - for me- this is an indication, not sure it will exactly happen like that.

The goal would be to divide up the private cellar space that is left into squares of 1,5 m2 (more or less). Each of the squares would need to have an indicator. As you want to have 6 m2, at the time of the division: you will take 4 of these squares (or 3 if you prefer to be more around 4,5 m2), situated next to each other. For the notary, based on the indicators of the squares, it will be clear what ‘your’ property is and thus what you need to pay… The total surface of these squares will determine how much you will need to pay. At this moment it is estimated at 1703 euro/m2 (if i remember well). If needed you could take scotch and draw these squares on the ground of the cellar (once constructed) so you know ‘your’ space.

Lee is still going to discuss with the architects on the basement today.

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hi @els , thank you! I think i indicated 3-4m2, but perhaps we can review this still.

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Agreed. Here the needs are:

  1. Unambiguously associate property rights of the basement to property rights of the units.
  2. Efficiency.

For example, should I be in need of selling a unit, I want to be able to tell the buyer “these are your 3 m2 of basement”. But that’s a worst case scenario: until that happens, I am very happy to share, for the reasons explained by Lie. I think these two needs are best reconciled by having deeds that attribute exclusive property rights; a sharing-by-default practical solution; and the possibility to separate out individual basements, for example with a net of a shelf.

I am also very in favor of common storage for consumables (washing liquid, toilet paper etc., bought in bulk).

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Update: François is working on a slightly revised version, which will have smaller squares to which we can attribute property rights.

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Link to the revised plan: Login – Nextcloud

Explanation: https://edgeryders.eu/t/sous-sol/21051/8

I can put together a one-page proposal in the course of tomorrow, but not earlier.

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Some remarks:

  • i would switch the location of the atelier with the storage space on the right down corner. This last storage space has a lot of ‘circulation’ zone which limits the advantages of sharing a cellar space. And for those having their shared storage place there, they will need to buy a bigger amount of circulation area than the others.
    https://c301.nl.tabdigital.eu/f/229197

  • I don’t see how the 3 people wanting a private cellar space will fit in this plan. The placing of the walls doesn’t allow this flexibility any more, but i have the impression not placing walls is a no go for the architects. In that case i would foresee the 8m2 , 6 m2 and 4m2 of private cellar space fixed in the middle storage zone on the plans, which I find a pitty. I would be open to take e.g. an extra 2 m2 in case there would be too much cellar space in the end, and placing walls now, wouldn’t allow that.

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Hello, I’m trying to follow the basement discussion because we are one of the households with not a clear view on what’s best ( in terms of gaining- losing space, possible conflicts -hoarders vs compulsive declutters- and how a common cellar would be distributed). I understand that on this proposal i) the storing area is the one on stripes and ii) the blue lines are walls and the space will be divided into sort of clusters of two and three storing spaces. And more walls could be envisage in case someone, at some point, decided to convert their cellar into a fully private space? I hope we can discuss this plan together.

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The draft proposal is now ready: Login – Nextcloud

@els, @reef-buildfin, if someone would have time for a quick peer review, please don’t hesitate.

In any case we’ll take the time tomorrow to discuss it in detail.

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reviewed and made some comments.

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