Thank you very much for this discussion. I am still very much starting to learn about Holochain. Thank you very much for having this discussion and linking explanatory texts :).
Similar to the underlying capitalistic mentality shaping solutions through their development as brought up by John, I want to mention the general problem of scaling at this point.
Many solutions, if not all, change their character when scaled up. How do you think would it impact the Holochain and Pay-coupons models you are discussing here if they would be used by large and not fully self-informed communities?
I’m glad it was helpful @MariaEuler , if you have other questions around Holochain I am happy to talk about it to the extent of what I know.
It’s hard for me to say much about the character of Holochain-based software since it’s all still very experimental. There are no production-level apps and I don’t know how well it is all going to turn out, but in theory and prototyping it is looking fascinating.
I think that there is a possibility of not needing to scale as much with self-hosting. Especially if we can bridge all of the different applications through the person using them. If it is as easy to create an application (or at least instance of an application) for three people as it is for 10 000 people then how large a scale would we need?
One aim with Holochain is to have small packets of composable code that can be used to create the local applications that are needed within a community. While there are probably going to be applications that span actors from all over the world, including knowledge sharing and bridge-building applications between networks, there is a possibility for an approach to network building that promotes smaller, evolvable applications that are run by a bunch of people that want to coordinate activities. Is there really a need for global scale applications? The one network? If not, what is the appropriate scale of a network?
I am guessing that people will be bridging different networks and applications in the area of their interest and expertise. I don’t really have a clear picture of all this yet, but I don’t think we’ll see these 4 billion people applications like FB. Maybe not even 4 million people applications. More like a multitude of interconnected 400 people (or 40 people) applications. Many people may have similar applications but they could all be running slightly different versions and tweaked interfaces, at least that is the promise of the infrastructure as far as I understand it. We could hope that this would lead to more self-steering, self-directed and self-informed groups, but I guess time will tell if that actually comes to fruition.
I would be very keen to hear more about your view on how SSB and Holochain would be combinable?
I’m also curious to hear more about what holochains relation to monetary structures embedded within the applications. Would currency be a possible integration in the core protocol of Holochain? Would it be in the application layer?
In general I’m curious as to Holochains relation to monetary-issues
Well as both SSB and Holochain are frameworks that store information locally, author (and cryptografically sign) and gossip what you as an agent signal (post) into the systems, it seems to me that building bridging applications would be relatively straight forward. You could have an application, lets call it SimplePost, that is able to cross post (through your cryptographic signatures) both into the SSB blob and some Holochain local chain and DHT.
You could also authorize an SSB application to request data from say your Holochain contact book by simply opening the “API” of the Holochain application to allow it (authorizing the keys of the application requesting). I write API in quotations since, in my understanding, good Holochain design is based on separating the UIs and data layer of all the Holochain applications so that we can create UIs that utilize many different DHTs for richer applications. Through that design, all data function calls are effectively APIs and just as accessible from, for instance, an SSB application as from a simple localhost webapp (using things like websockets).
As for currencies and Holochain that is a bit of a rabbit hole. This whole thing grew out of the meta-currency project and there is some pretty deep and heady material on what Holochain is trying to enable in this space.
But as a short reply, yes, one of the reasons why Holochain has focused so much energy on creating peer-validating functions and temper-proofing local chains of entries is that it sets the stage for super simple implementation of currency.
Currencies on Holochain would not require tokens or mining but are a way of issuing credit to one another which is then a circulating supply. This can be done within applications, but are possibly better thought of as micro-services usable by any application you have installed. Currency is a simple app. And as all other apps, the UI could weave it into another app.
Say for instance a carsharing application. The application that is keeping track of car usage and maintenance costs can call into the carpool credit application and shift credit from one user to another. Maybe the carpool credit application can also be the tool library credit application, all that requires is using it in both apps.
I don’t know if that makes things clearer @zelf, if not, please help me clarify where I am confusing, I’m happy to exercise and grow my understanding like that.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m seeing two issues you’re touching one. The primary one being about project governance: how do we run these projects?
There I find it difficult to avoid BDFL when starting the project, but the question is how to transition to something better as other contributors come on board. I’m not sure quite how that relates to governing the Internet though.
But with your concerns on information overload (as well as the practicalities of helping people find the conversations they need to be a part of) seems to tie into my interest in how to improve search and discovery.
I’m definitely interested in hearing more about how this would work!
Where such Holochain currencies are issued and accepted by one party each: yes, then these would be very similar to coupons.
The reason we could not use any public ledger protocol for PayCoupons’ coupons was however that our coupon exchange algorithm (network bartering) could not be implemented in a privacy-protecting way with any current blockchain technology. Without that algorithm, coupons are not really useful though. So in case that Holochain has coupon-like currencies I’d be interested how they facilitate their exchange …
@Peer At the same time the educated middle-class is more busy than ever with work days consisting of 8-11 hour workdays (including about 2 hour commute for some), taking care of kids, having Netflix competing with its main competitor being a biological need called Sleep and hours of “sousveillance” looking at other people’s lives instead of interacting with each other and society. I think you’re on to something but I believe that all people have an inherent will which there is a constant battle from different actors to attract.
@johncoate Definitely. Maybe the narratives around these issues such as the planet’s ecosystems health and overall system health are erasing the motivation when the narratives need to enable people’s will? Regarding the driverelss car-narrative I believe big reason to the belief in this is that it has strong compelling arguments for investors and politicians interested in growth and maintaining current mainstream policies connected to measurements like GDP. This is simply because it requires to build new (electric) superior cars/vehicles (for few individuals), infrastructure, support and maintenance systems as well as autonomy systems which is more attractive than the more financially cost-heavy investments of big transit system which are less flexible, more capital intensive and has less revenue per person (one car/person vs one train or hyperloop/many people). This is more interesting even though it’s admitted that it’s much more difficult and complex (i.e. people being involved in traffic) to build self-driving systems for cars than for airplanes as there are more vehicles and objects on the ground than in the air.
@2RowFlow Thanks for the tip. As I understand it, Holochain is a technical solution trying to replace the Internet, dependant and within this technical and social infrastructure that the solution wants to replace? It would need to be housed within an alternative physical and social infrastructure than the current Internet in order to replace it right (and then have a surge of users onboarding Holochain instead of the platforms on the web as we know it)?
@zaunders I’m thinking my post is more perspectives and merely asking: what if we would try things differently as a society, based on what we are learning from the current state of affairs? And I’m trying to not jump to the solutions be it technical or social ones.
@johncoate I’m not sure it’s “winner takes all”, I’m thinking it is more like everyone takes everything? Regardless of ideology, it seems that responsibility to consider and act for the wholeness of the system is abscent.
@alcinnz Yes there are two issues and the primary is on how we run the Internet as a whole and an infrastructure. You’re right about BDFL, when starting something on one’s own initiative that becomes a BDFL scenario - however starting with together others, I’m not sure it has to be a BDFL scenario. How this alternative way of governing and developing would work - that’s what I would like to research if I get the fellowship with bursary.
Interesting! How has these materials translated into real-world practice? I know there are practical examples which her research was connected to - but how has it developed?
It might work with the off-the-shelf solutions but the implementation of those - they depend a lot on the process in which they are implemented right? Are they convincing enough as governance systems in comparison to existing systems? How have they been convincing societies and communities so far?
My proposal is to research: How can we organize for a big, complex and social multi-stakeholder challenge like the development of the Internet?A challenge which at first seems like a web of technical challenges and where it seems every issue can be solved with technical solutions - but in reality perhaps in essence is a social issue at its roots?
My proposal for a track at the distributed conference would be to try to arrange distributed participatory processes to try to build the coalition throughout Europe needed to take on the challenge of reshaping the development of the Internet.
(I have not replied to Holochain-replies, unsure how they relate as a technical solution.)
@mattiasx what’s your definition of “infrastructure”? Do you mean the communications hardware on which digital signals travel between devices? Or are you using a different definition?
I’m curious because to me preventing things like Cambridge Analytica’s data peddling is a task more at the level of data governance rather than at the level of infrastructure governance. Maybe I’m using a different definition?
Over a long time – decades, or centuries. Governing the Commons lists, if memory serves, six long-term stable of managing (limited, renewable) resources without top-down control: water management in the Philippines and Eastern spain, forestry in Switzerland and Japan, fisheries in Eastern Canada and so on.
Since these governance arrangements evolved over a long period of time and tend to have no recorded history, Ostrom never gets to observe such an arrangement gel. The book ends with conditions and even “design principles” that increase their chances of success. Highly recommended.
If the project #TheWeb of Tim Berners-Lee could unite the like-minded dreamers here for the better internet? My input (I’m a printing engineer / information logistics via digital print): a physical network of Things, each of which enables secure access to #TheWeb. And the Things are Public Library PAPER books, with “digital twin access” interfaces - via SMART QR-code stickers, integrated into a book cover / dust jacket. I hope that ubiquity of books and trust to their public roots & non-capitalistic value of Learning will attract Peer-to-Peer book sharers. Including sharing constructive emotions (similar to social media, but without negative and hype, thanks to certain algorithms), collaboration ideas etc. Does it sound viable? https://devpost.com/software/IndiviDUALbooks
We enable more decent royalties (for CopyRight/CR owners) flow, secured by blockchain: each book usage is initiated by click at ISBN code
increased ca. by 20%, thanks to more sales & library loans
each usage event reflected in the Creative Passport*
two types of royalties protected, though we could ‘ignore’ CR:
For Visually Impaired People /VIP***
For non-VIP: right2copy for private needs.
Issue: it takes time to explain to (legacy/stubborn/greedy) publishers, that they should OPEN books (&eBooks) data, to
And we start it as Blue Ocean solution: for currently under-served groups, by providing them TRIPLE-A books (Accessible, Affordable, Available), with ‘digital twins’ of contents - adjusted & adjustable in real time - to the unique user:
VIP make 20% of population, currently served only ca. 1% (by audio books for VIP
immigrants (books at non-local languages are rare), elderly people (digitally illiterate) who need SPECIALIZED books in ONE UNIQUE copy each, like special fonts for dyslexic/ Large Print Books.
And (referring to Copyright question) our strongest feature is ISP’s / Copyright protection & enhanced support: see Public Libraries Testimonials, slide 8 https://bit.ly/oeBook4Espoo
We would also be interested in hearing about what motivated you initially to develop this? Was there an initial experience or piece of writing that made you aware of this need?
Hello @VladiKup, that’s a very attractive model. And you are right on the money there, it depends on publishers. They are incredibly powerful, and what they say goes. Let’s hope they come around…
