Litobox - collective prefab heat pumps

There was an article in the newspaper De Morgen about a company that offers collective heat pumps. @els I figure that maybe you might be interested to check this out? (no pressure of course)

It’s paywalled, so I also saved a copy on Nextcloud: Login – Nextcloud

And this is the company’s website: About us › LITO: Develops and builds innovative solutions for a fast-changing energy sector

In short, what I take from the article is that they claim that there product is better because it is delivered as a prefab coherent piece (as opposed to: composed by several suppliers and brands) and also that it is modular (as in: components can be replaced or repaired). They also claim that it uses less energy (because you don’t need a full heat pump for every unit) and that it uses less space. I didn’t find the article particularly critical, so I can’t say if any of it is true.

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Yes, thanks.

It sounds interesting (but didn’t find neither sth a bit more critical of this product). I read a bit more about it, the advantages (to complete what you wrote):

  • circular aspect/ecological aspect: the material, way of constructing it, and it being modular. They produce little waste at their side. 1 installer instead of 3/4 installers for the different HVAC components (saving on transport,..)

  • efficiency: Because of the prefab formula, they test the whole installation on site so they are sure things are working when installing at the customer, which is not guaranteed if you have 4 different installers doing their thing.
    They don’t necessarily use machines from the same brand, but they are consistent in how they compose their litobox, work with the same suppliers. By doing always the same, they start elimating parts that they don’t really need, making the installation easier, simpler, lighter/smaller .
    When a problem shows up, they investigate and solve it, not only for that one client, but for all future lito boxes.
    They say the ‘conventional’ installing companies don’t always work with the same supplier, depending on the offer, the promotions,…
    They measure a lot to see how the different components work together, which is possible if you always work with the same suppliers. Having feedback from the figures, and improve the product accordingly. (‘meten is weten’ as they say in dutch)

  • addressing (future) lack of qualified installers.

  • they say you don’t need any technical room in your unit any more, all will be on the roof

  • the ethics of the company: they don’t want to grow. They are now looking into how to work with disabled people. They also dream of seeing the litobox on the second hand market in the future, so people with little means have the opportunity to go for a cheaper solution.

I have a few considerations:

  • the visual aspect/the noise. I remember at the time we were discussing the heating solutions with WalK. The bigger collective air-water heat pump was discarded because -if i remember well- the commune/the neighbours would not approve of it. Here it might not be completely the same as one litobox will supply max 8 units. I also wonder if that has an impact on our permit and if this would need a revision.

  • in the interview the CEO talks about having to put a lot of energy in convincing construction companies to buy this product. Apparently the construction world is quite a conservative world and fear there profit will go down, so not sure the construction company we are going to sign with, will be open for this.

  • how will the litoboxes integrate in an energy community

  • they want to be more and more digital

fyi: there is an interview in English with the CEO for those interested (: Podcast Episode 21: Lieven Smeyers (Lito) | Bao Living

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Thanks for looking that up and for listing the advantages and your considerations.

About the permit I seem to remember that it would be a separate permit. If that is true it might still be possible to apply for that in parallel.

About convincing construction companies I am less worried because we are the maître d’ouvrage ourselves. I might be wrong of course, but I imagine that if we tell them that this is what we want, this is what it’s going to be.

Integrating heat pumps into the energy community is not an issue I believe, as the energy community will only possess the solar panels and possibly the battery. The heat pumps would be an energy taker.

About the digital point I’m not sure I understand the concern (not saying that it’s not valid of course).

Looking at all that, once our web page about sustainability is up, shall we contact them for a first round of information? Or shall we do it right away?

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I am not talking about integrating the heat pumps in the energy community. I am talking about the photovoltaic solar panels (and thermal solar pannels) being part of the litobox. Probably not an issue though.

Not being low tech and going further and further away from it.

i don’t see why we need to wait for our web page about sustainability being up…

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Update: I sent them a message today to ask for a short video call.

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I started a list of questions to be asked: Login – Nextcloud

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7 posts were split to a new topic: Litobox - private discussion

A post was merged into an existing topic: Litobox - private discussion

Alberto asked me for an opinion about this Litobox device. So below, please find a few points for inspiration, mostly stuff to ask the Litobox people about to inform your decision. I am not a heating system technician, so take it with a lot of salt.

Overall I like their “heat pump as appliance” idea, as it is more DIY and could easily be more reliable and perhaps also cheaper. The question is if this system is the most suitable to provide what you want, esp. in combination with self-generated electricity:

Agreed, but an issue with demand planning might arise since heat pumps are easily the most power hungry energy takers of the house. It gets interesting in spring and autumn when sometimes there is more PV supply than energy demand, sometimes the opposite, so by buffering and planning demand in a collectively coordinated way the limited PV supply can go farther. How to do that collective demand planning I don’t know. But the heat pump offers one more tool for that: the hot water tank (integrated into the Litobox as per the article) can buffer energy in the form of hot water. More cost effective than batteries, and very useful together with the weather forecast (both temperature and insolation for PV generation) and a dynamic electricity rate.

This also brings me to the main caveat I have about the Litobox: how large is its buffer tank? It does not say in the article, but it might be too small to allow for any significant savings by generating hot water in advance during times when electricity is cheap (and thus also contributing to grid stability by adding energy storage). For our two-family home I would add ca. 1500 l of hot water buffer tank. It does not seem that, for eight units, there are 4 × 1500 l = 6 m³ of hot water buffer tanks in the Litobox. It would also not be feasible due to roof loading.

So I think you can do a simulation to know how much hot water buffer tanks you would like to have for saving on heating costs (and potentially cold water in the same tanks, saving on cooling costs …). And then ask the Litobox people in which way this can be integrated into their system. The piping is not a problem, as a hot water buffer tank acts like another heat demand / radiator. The question is if the Litobox control system can be configured to charge a buffer tank, or if you need your own digital control system for that. (See note below on what Litobox should offer for external digital control.)

It has both PV panels and thermal solar collectors? That would be a rather strange system design, would be good to ask them about.

My argument against integrated PV panels: PV panels on the box itself would never be enough to power the heat pump in blackout situations, so why add them at all? To get off-grid capabilities people would need to add a large PV array around the box anyway, and use regular grid inverters, batteries etc.. When doing so, they would want to avoid having the same kind of system (at maybe 5% its power output) inside their heat pump, as that just adds complexity and points of failure but not functionality.

My argument against integrated thermal solar collectors: this whole class of equipment has no justification once one decided to have a heat pump and PV panels already. Because these have a higher heat generation efficiency per collector area (very roughly 22% for PV panels times COP 4 for a heat pump = 88%), and are more versatile by making electricity in summer instead, or even delivering cooling power via the same heat pump. So thermal panels would only add system complexity and points of failure without adding function.

In my opinion (software engineer here), it really depends how they implement and integrate their digital interfaces and functions. If it’s the equivalent of a washing machine where the door does not open without a wifi connection, then I’d not touch this with a 10 ft pole of course. But to future proof for the necessary energy transition, with demand flexibility and all, there is really no way around having digital control over all large electricity consumers in the house. So there has to be a way to control the heat pump (operation, power level, output temperature) and sense its environment (primary circuit input and output temperature, buffer temperature, heating circuit forward and return temperature, heat demand) via a digital protocol. If that protocol is relatively widespread, can use or be adapted to Ethernet cable, and has open source implementations, all is good. You can then integrate it somehow into your digital building control environment. Worst case, it may need a microcontroller and some custom programming (not such a big deal anymore, AI will help :slightly_smiling_face:).

 

In the article linked above, they mention:

One large heat pump for multiple apartments is much quieter than a roof full of individual outdoor units.

So that might be a good argument to tell the neighbors.

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Fantastic Matt, I am in your debt, again. Thank you so much.

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