Yes and Yes 
Thanks @Ezio_Manzini for your suggestion.
Actually, this is exactly the approach we have taken, where the pushbutton+ramp could be just one of the possible outcomes in the scenarios we are creating at the moment after talking with the actors involved in the interaction itself.
As @Alberto was guessing it is actually true that Dioniso is looking for the least interaction possible.
We were guessing it as well BUT we could only consider this a fact after listening to Dionisos’ stories.
What we were trying to do with this open conversation was to prepare the table for a conversation with Dionisos and Minervas.
We believe it’s only by talking to them in the first place that we can have the answers on top of which we can start (co)designing possible solutions.
Thanks for your contribution
Wheelmap & Raul & Accessible Olli
Hey all,
If my translation was halfway accurate you would probably be interested in wheelmap.org and their Ramp initiative. Also I am involved in a mobility solution that will likely be another nice piece of the puzzle as it could be the organic (on demand) distribution channel for the ramps.
You people seem to have a lot to bring to the table for this. Context:
https://launchforth.io/nowbreakit/bring-an-extra-destination-ramp/
https://launchforth.io/localmotors/accessibleolli/handbook/
I’ve already got in touch with Raul: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raulkrauthausen/
and if you need some more info on Olli (also in Italian):
https://www.linkedin.com/in/carloiacovini/ + https://launchforth.io/transitauthority/ (lead)
Keeps popping up
Thanks, @trythis ! Wheelmap keeps popping up in this context, and sure enough it makes great sense. In his talks, Raul mentions 80K non-accessible places in Hamburg, mostly only because of one or two steps.
Alessandro mentions that many shops have a portable ramp, but there is no simple way to know which ones do and which don’t. The call button means “we have a ramp, press here and we’ll bring it out for you”.
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the idea of the map was actually a winner at our meeting
Thanks @trythis for the links, we will in be touch for sure!
Actually during our meeting with the citizens the idea of a map came out organically, based on the real experience of people who have accessibility issues (we called them Dionisos), and not pushed by us or by word of mouth for instance. In fact, when we cited wheelmap 90+% of the people have never heard about it unfrotunately 
But other systems are being used, google street view for instance.
We will for sure connect with these people and listen from their experience as well, thanks a lot 
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Heads up for Challenge launch next week!
Challenge will go live, looks like you guys could contribute very nicely as there are different specializations and loads of prizes!
https://launchforth.io/localmotors/accessibleolli/discussion/topic/calling-all-co-creators/63262/#post_1
Also paging @Hazem because I saw you are connected to Raul. 
GRAZIE / THANKS FOR CONTRIBUTIONS
Grazie per tutti i commenti!
Scopo di questa conversazione era di preparare i temi e le domande per l’incontro che WeMake e il Comune di Milano hanno avuto con la cittadinanza lo scorso Giovedi 11 Maggio.
Forse non siamo riusciti pienamente nell’intento di richiedere un task preciso dato che la conversazione si e’ mossa immediatamente su argomenti di alto livello, ma miglioreremo
I risultati dell’incontro possono essere consultabili qui
https://edgeryders.eu/en/open-rampette-la-chiamata-incontro-1105-lastecca30
https://edgeryders.eu/en/node/7915
https://edgeryders.eu/en/node/7916
Thanks for all the comments!
The goal of this conversation was to prepare the topics and questions for the debate with the citizens of Milan this past Thursday, May 11th.
Maybe we were not exactly able to convey a precise task as the conversation quickly moved to more structural approaches, but we’ll get better
You can read the report of our meeting (in italian only) here:
https://edgeryders.eu/en/open-rampette-la-chiamata-incontro-1105-lastecca30
https://edgeryders.eu/en/node/7915
https://edgeryders.eu/en/node/7916
Is this really a technical problem? Notes from the workshop
The “Dioniso group” in OpenRampette held a super interesting workshop in Milan. I was not there myself, but the documentation is high quality. Unfortunately it’s in Italian… but I do read Italian, so I can report on it.
Most participants seem to be either working for WeMake, or for the City Hall, or architects. But one person identified as G was also there. He has mobility problems, and brought a fresh point of view into the discussion. One of the people working for the City on accessibility (identified as L) also has mobility problems. The two seemed to resonate on some points. Here’s my understanding of what he is saying:
- The relationship between shopkeepers and people with disability/mobility problems is not good. The former have a tendency to ignore Italian laws on accessibility. The first thing G asks for is tough enforcement: fine the bastards, see if we get their attention. He even carries around stickers to call out people who hinder accessibility, for example by parking in the wrong place. Another participant, an architect with a disable family member, calls for "shaming mapping": make a map of the shops to steer clear of.
- "The first barrier to access is shyness". Using the OpenRampette stack (call button + mobile ramp) triggers a relationship between shopkeeper and low-mobility customer. If I get this right, G and L see this as bad. "A contrived relationship is no relationship at all. It is not a choice, and you are in the weaker position." – says G. L makes an even clearer point: "All disabled people are different, and have specific postural problems. To move me, you need to hold my head. Asking for help might be dangerous for me, if the person helping me does not understand my problem. So, not only you are forcing me into a relationship: you are forcing me into a relationship of trust."
- Friction between citizens with accessibility problems and shopkeepers combine in an interesting way with the contrived relationship issue. G describes the typical interaction with a shop like this. First, he needs to ask someone to call for the shopkeeper to bring out the ramp. At this point, the shopkeeper tends to be polite and apologetic for the lack of accessibility. But then he goes back six months later, and the situation is the same. So what is the point of apologies and kindness? It's a facade. It only makes him angrier.
This is super interesting and, for me, quite novel.
I asked @ChiaraFrr and @Federico_Monaco how these inputs changed the design parameters. Let’s see what they say.
Also ping: @stellavale | @trythis | @Ezio_Manzini
It’s an experience problem…
Thanks @Alberto for your comment and for checking all the docs.
I agree that this is probably the most interesting outcome of the meeting, and this is the reason why the user research was so highly needed. I just want to add a small, still very relevant detail: during the conversation with the Dionisos one of the participants asked G and L how important was the relationship not just between Dioniso and the shopkeeper but also between Dioniso and the other citizens, the neighborhood for instance… This question addressed specifically the thesis that it would be cool to create awareness around the accessibility issue, involving more people in the process, resulting in a more helpful environment. Well, the answer was, somehow suprisingly, that this process of awareness creation is not a priority, the priority is accessing places, feeling the freedom to go wherever I want to. For instance, a place like a supermarket or a big chain retail shop (they usually have concrete ramps) where I can enter without even anyone noticing is always a preferred solution!
Now, to reply to your question, this last insight and the ones you have listed above slightly changed our perspective on the problem, and for sure they did change design parameters. How? One thing that came out early during the conversation is that Dioniso would like to know in advance if a place is accessible or not. This is something Dioniso is already doing with existing tools (Google street map was given as an example), but can be highly improved. This kick started a topic around mapping and tools like wheelmap (which our Dionisos didn’t even know existed…) and around seamless not-in-person communication between Dioniso and the shopkeeper.
What next? @lorenzo just started drawing scenarios and in the next days will work on rough prototyping 2/3 of these scenarios that will be showcased and tested during the meeting on June 21st.
He’ll be the person to go to for everything related to the “call” experience from now on
Agree: awareness per se is useless
G and L are thinking straight. When I really think about it, of course awareness is not a priority. Awareness has a social cost: we need to learn about the issue of people with disabilities trying to go shopping, map the debate, consider possible solutions, etc. The most efficient way to solve this is to involve only the protagonists: shopkeepers and people with disabilities themselves. The rest of us, we can chip in as friendly fire to help one of the sides and put pressure on the other. But ideally we would not need to: what works for the people in question will also work for us.
(And by the same token, participation is a cost, not a good thing in itself. Sometimes it’s a cost worth paying. But it’s always a cost.)
In terms of community care, communities can help by cutting the crap and building solutions, just like you are doing now at WeMake. A good example is the guerrilla DIY bicycle lane between Isola and via Farini. In terms of rampette, people would just show up (provided Minerva agrees) and pour the concrete. No awareness needed, really!
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useleness and awerness
Awareness can be a step in the process. Economically speaking awerness can be a tool or a value that can lower some costs.
“In terms of rampette, people would just show up (provided Minerva agrees) and pour the concrete.”
The solution you suggest is very practical. Try to convince someone doing it. We’re probably following another tactic path.
Sure!
Sure, @Costantino , I can imagine how you would use awareness as a stepping stone towards a solution. For example via exerting pressure on Minerva, or raising money, or whatever.
The idea that awareness is not desirable per se is not my own. It is a result of the workshop, as reported by @alessandro_contini . As I think about it, I can see where the Dionisos are coming from. But, it a direct solution is not available, then I am sure they would fall back on awareness raising.