Next steps with the architects, till end of 2024

Hi all, yesterday we had an interesting exchange with the architects (a more extensive feedback on that meeting will follow soon).
One thing the architects can/want to soon start up, is asking for a couple of price estimates (‘devis’) from various geometers/land surveyors so they can get accurate measurements of the site, the neighboring buildings. They could take this up even this week. They said they have some good experience with some of them they worked with in the past.
They asked if that is ok with us. It’s included in the price so looking for one ourselves would not make a difference financially, it’s just in case we would have sb in the group or sb close that we would prefer to delegate this task to.
So please speak out before Wednesday evening 22:00 if you would object to the architects taking that up.


No objections from me.

The notary mentioned on our last call that he usually works with the same geomètre and he also said we should be careful as not any given geomètre can do what what is required in our case. @ugne perhaps it is worth asking the notary for the contact details and why he thinks we should go for that one? We can then make sure to inform the architects, perhaps they even know our notary‘s trusted geomètre.


@Lee @reef-finance @manuelpueyo

  • The architects will need to have acces to the site => what was now negotiated ? Did we allready receive a key, or will this be only when signing the compromis?
  • Another question from the architects: they would be happy to have the plans of Matexi. Our understanding is that the owner doesn’t have them, correct?
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@reeflings : here is a return on our meeting with the architects we had on June 3rd. If you have any feedback, please reply on this post.
Goal of the meeting:
getting more info/clarity on the info we need to pass to them from ‘The Program’ round 3,
getting more info/clarity on the common spaces
getting more clarity on the next steps

  • Common spaces: How do they see our common spaces/what they propose as m2 for our common spaces, based on our results of the ‘common spaces survey’ (internal link: Login – Nextcloud)
    ** Multipurpose room and kitchen: 100 m2 net and laundry room 12 m2 on the ground level =>112 m x 1,2 = 135 m2
    ** Mezzanine (which can be closed off):
    *** They suggest it to be a multipurpose room= living room (15m2) + guest room and shower (6m2). We could increase the m2 of the mezzanine to 25 to 30 m2 but not more, as the ceilings aren’t that high. (we asked the question as we didn’t see the mixed usage of living room and guest room as an ideal solution)
    *** A mezzanine doesn’t come for free: it would be 750 euro/m2. 21 m2 would mean 15.750 euro extra (more or less 750 euro per unit extra. I guess this is without fees/taxes…)
    *** the ceilings wouldn’t be that high. In l’Echappée the ground floor is 205 cm high and the mezzanine is 190 cm high. We could higher the height of the ground floor of Obelix, to be more comfortable but they say in L’Echappée it works well, as the rest of the space is high and airy people don’t feel crushed.
    *** To give an idea how it could look like (pictures and section of the mezzanine from l’Echappée): Login – Nextcloud
    ** Workshop
    *** 20 m2
    *** they wonder if we would be ok to have it at the -1 level , this is the cheapest
    *** we would need to see how many m2 of private cellars we need
    *** they would need to see if they can increase the m2 of -1 surface (depends on shape that needs to stay logic)
    *** would come at an extra cost of 34800 fees and taxes included (27000 fees and taxes excluded)

  • Common spaces: bike shed
    ** legal obligation: 1 bike per room but they propose to maintain the rule 1 bike per person (= number of rooms +1, and add a margin) => there is no check on this number per unit, it’s a global figure for the whole project that needs to respect the legal obligation
    ** going for the minimum would not be a good idea, as it’s linked to the limited number of parking spaces foreseen on the plans. If we would go low, they might not except 5 parkings spaces
    ** adding extra bikes under Idefix, is possible. For now there are about 10 foreseen, and extra 6-7 could be possible
    ** once they have all the data of the program (units + common spaces) they will see how/where else they could store bikes to safe inside m2 of common space
    ** brutopia: the bike places are common to all units. Every once in a while they reevaluate how many bike spaces are needed per unit and at that point everyone gets x number of bike spaces assigned.

  • Common spaces: process to define common spaces in Brutopia
    ** we asked for how they decided on the common spaces in Brutopia => there were no common spaces foreseen in the beginning as they didn’t think they would be able to afford it, so they were added later.

  • Dividing the 1905 m2 in units and commons spaces / choosing your unit
    ** Variation of the price
    *** How will they decide which are the cheaper and more expensive units? they will define about 10 criteria, that each have a certain weight. Not all criteria have the same weight. Some of the criteria will be: sun, light, acces to the garden, vue, noise,… (light, sun having a big weight).
    *** Once these criteria are defined, they will be discussed with Team Building
    *** They indicated that - in general- the higher you go, the more expensive it gets. The front building (Obelix) is best situated on the level on light/sun so will probably be more expensive. On the other hand, the middle building will be more quiet than the frond building and will have a nicer view, but that said, the street is not so noisy … (so not straightforward to communicatie about this high level)
    *** because of the weight of the 10 criteria, we will get a wide variation of prices. Probably every apartment will have a different price/m2. And this price/m2 will only be known towards the end of 2024.
    *** if price is an important factor for you: mention it when filling in the Program (round 3), e.g. my absolute maximum is x euro casco price.
    ** The choice of your unit
    *** One of the next steps the architects will do is divide the 1905 m2 of surface we have in units and common spaces. Two factors will play when doing this: the geometrie of the site/buildings/superposition and what we’ve communicated based on the third round of the Program. They will only take into account the data of the full members.
    *** We will have as an output: a building divided in apartments, and a price per m2 for each of these apartments. There will be no names on the apartments. It will then be up to us the discuss who will take what apartment, (taking into account the priority defined: reeflings joined sooner having a priority over reeflings joining later). As said before, this exercise will happen probably towards the end of this year/beginning of next year.

  • Next steps
    1 Third round of Le program + common spaces => without this they cannot continue
    2 At the same time: getting a geometer/surveyor to get the exact measurements of the site/neighbouring buildings…
    3 soil tests : penetration level,… to determine the foundations,… (not that urgent)
    4 define/sign contract between us and the architects => they will send us a proposition next week that we can read/discuss and there will be a session foreseen with them to answer our questions
    5 phase of the sketch/design => access needed to the site. In this phase work several meetings will be organised
    6 once we come to an agreement of the progam: presentation to the commune (division in units, common spaces, cellars, allready some proposals on materials used, ideas for the facade, terraces,…)
    7 ‘bureaus d’études’ (for the stability, foundations), PEB, acoustique,…
    8 estimation of the constructions costs
    9 meeting with l’urbanisme
    10 weighing of the prices => the goal is to have this delivered by the end of the year
    11 choice of the units by the first group (= currrent full members), than the newly joined fully members
    12 introduction of the permit (estimated to be done towards the end of Q1 2025


hi @reef-building
Got the contacts of the géomètre from the notary. Sending them to Els to add it to your files.


Thanks a lot @els!

For the key: best to call my dad, and see with him whether you can directly call the seller. After that probably a good idea to spend some money on duplicates and even a key box?

For the common spaces: did they indicate in what format they would like to receive our programme? I mean, is it for example two pages of text with the spaces or functions that we would like to have, or …?

My sense here is that we are going into the details too fast, both in terms of how something can be done (mezzanine, underground etc) and what the price implications would be (especially for such small amounts). I would rather give them our list of wishes, probably with a distinction betweeen “indispensable” and “nice-to-have” and then ask them to work on that, and then maybe present us a couple of options and their price implications?

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I don’t say you are not right and i do think the architects can come up with solutions (which indeed we do not need to foresee)… If possible I would like to talk to you before our 'helping circle ‘common spaces’ takes place … (Common spaces: getting more precision on our "programme" - #25 by Sarah).

We shared the table that came out of the ‘common spaces survey’, and understood they already took that into account in the proposal they made to us. The way I understood it, @Sarah @Sophie_B complete/correct me if you understood it differently:

  • they made a proposal of our common spaces, which include a multipurpose room with kitchen, a laundry room and a multipurpose mezzanine with living room, guest room and shower. For me this corresponds to our which list in terms of ‘what spaces we want’ => see what the groups reaction is to that (m2 ok, concerns,…)
  • they asked us to check whether an atelier on the -1 level is acceptable
  • they asked us to give the number of bike spaces we want, taking into account that we cannot go to the minimum as they need to justify the 5 parking spaces
  • i would handle it as with the apartments a bit: say what is absolutely important (and like you said what is nice to have), maybe say if we have an extra budget for it, and what that would be
    So for me a word document containing this info should do it. I guess 1 or 2 pages should do. When i asked the same question for the apartments, they didn’t seem to mind much about the format (that was my feeling)

we didn’t get to all of our questions, so we will be asking some by mail. I will explicately ask the question of the format for the common spaces…


In my notes, I wrote end of December 2024, but anyway Francois said they could not commit to this yet .

That sounds good!
Although it’s always a bit of chicken and egg situation, where we need some info from them so that we can get started and not just go full blue sky on the process. So I still think it wasn’t a bad idea that we gathered some data to base our thinking on a little… But yes to lets not be overly specific on what we communicate to them in the final step…


@els was there an indication of when we will get to this level of clarity? I’m asking because for the recruitment process it’s a bit of disaster to not know where the units will be. Can you please include a note somewhere to insist that we are really in a rush with this, if only for a first draft?

I understood from Francois:

  • last week they wouldn’t work on the Reef, but coming week they could
  • they will work on the planning (as what francois presented in our meeting wasn’t yet validated with serge) and adding dates to it. So for me next week I think we can expect an indication of when the several phases would be delivered.
    (=> i will add the this question to our list of open questions (the planning and stressing we would need a first draft asap)

@reeflings , i would like to have some feedback on this…
As mentionned above, the architects asked for the ‘program of the full members’. I wonder if we shouldn’t open it to full and associate members as well.
So what does it mean if we don’t open it to associate members?
It means that the architects will only take into account the full members wishes from the third round of ‘Le Program’ and try to foresee these units in Obelix, Asterix, Idefix, together with our wishes for the common spaces. For the m2 left, they will create extra units, taking into account the proportion (more or less 1/3 of studios or 1 bedroom apartments, 1/3 of 2 bedroom apartments and 1/3 of 3 or 4 bedroom apartments). This means that the current associate members becoming full members in a few months, will ‘only’ have the choice to pick one of those latter apartments.
What is the danger/risk of also sending the program of the associate members
In any case, the current full members will have a priority of choice of unit over the current associate members.
The only risk/problem I see is if an associate member would have an exuberant choice of apartment (e.g a 500 m2 3 bedroom apartment) . Looking at the file destined for the confesseur, i see no such thing. So the worse case (the associate member would not decide to become a full member) is that we will need to ‘sell’ this absolutely normally sized apartment to another person. Is that a problem? I think not so i would argue for having the output of the third round of ‘Le Program’ of associates to be send to the architects as well…


I agree with your reasoning.
Question: when do we need to fill in the program 3? Preferably in the coming days? I will leave on holidays on Thursday at noon and I will not have a laptop with me so I would like to fill this in before then. :blush:

Hi mieke, i thought you were already on a break ;-). The idea would be to send it out this week (might be after Thursday), but you will still have time to fill it in after your holiday…

OK just to be sure that I won’t miss it, because it changed according to the last one that I filled in. I am back on 26 June.

Hi @els
Makes sense to me and I would agree, but all full members need to agree to open it to the associate members.

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  • Return of the architects on your question, if we should foresee a condition ‘suspensive’ . Their answer: this seems very complicated to do. We have never done this before and this goes beyond our skills. On top of that, it would surprise us that the seller would accept that.
  • We will need to clear the site asap, as it is needed for the geometer and for the people doing the soil tests => did i remember well that this was taken up in the ‘offre d’achat’ (or other document) for the seller to take this up?

In the meantime i called to marcel and he indicated that it was agreed with the seller that he will not take this up, because of his health issues…

fyi: the post with the answers of the architects:


for those interested:

  • Some more answers from the architects on questions we asked about commons, units, planning,…: Login – Nextcloud

  • Reviewed planning with high level dates of the different steps. This planning goes until the deposition of the permit at the commune :Login – Nextcloud


The text of the offer is as following :
“the bidder will enjoy the property by taking actual possession of it, after the plot will have been cleaned up (removing machinery, objects and construction waste).”
I haven’t visited the site so I do not know what exactly is there to remove. I saw your other post about clearing it. As long as it involves mainly elbow grease removing the plants, shrubs, etc, I don’t see any problem doing it ourselves. If there are bigger items, maybe it would be worthwhile to ask the current owner to discard them if otherwise it implies extra cost for the group. This is at long as the bigger items can stay on the plot and not interfere with the work of the architects/geometre until the owner removes them.